Let's Think Together
Might Should be Right
Published on January 28, 2007 By ThinkAloud In International
I promised to address the question of how can the US support Israel without creating enemies which our current policy is doing. Considering the history of the area and the situation currently on the ground, following is what I believe could be an acceptable solution to both sides. First, just a brief look at the history:

The Middle East and in particular the Egypt-Palestine/Israel-Saudi Arabia triangle has always been and will always remain the focal point of Humans ever since they inherited this planet The people living in that area are aware of the uniqueness of their land and they always traded with each other with no major conflict between them. All the fights in that area were almost always with outsiders trying to control it. Starting from the middle of the Ancient Egyptian era to the Tatar, the Romans, the Greeks, the Crusaders and now the “West”, the fights were always to reclaim the land from the “Invaders”. That doesn’t mean there were no friction between one group or the other every once in a while, but it was no different than the normal frictions between different groups in any other region in the world.

The Real problem started when the Romans persecuted the Jewish population in the area surrounding Jerusalem and forced large numbers of them to flee to other countries including Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Morocco and of course to Europe. The rest of the problem is a well known history.

I mentioned the above in order to establish a fact that most of the people who are concerned about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict ignore: The current Palestinians Are the descendents of those who stayed, they are not some alien creatures from another lands.

Israel’s recreation ignored that fact and Israel’s hard liners today still ignore it. At the same time the current Palestinians hard liners also ignore the fact that those who returned to the land in 1948 and since are the descendents of those who fled the persecution 2000 years ago.

It is obvious, to any neutral observer, that it is not fair for anyone to come after 2000 years to claim a land they left behind even if they were forced to leave specially that the ones who stayed had no role in that terrible act of forcing people out of their land. If anyone objects to that logic, and I suppose that there will be many, let them answer this question: would the African Americans and the rest of the African people who were kidnapped and forced into Slavery allover the world have the right to go back to their original land in Africa and claim that they are the rightful owners of that land?

However, and regardless of the rights and wrongs, we now have two groups having the same origin i.e. they are in reality distant cousins each claiming the same land. It is obvious that both are partially correct in that claim and neither one will ever be satisfied with only part of that land. This fact is very clear to anyone who knows both sides. Any talk that we hear from the leaders in the area about “The Two State Solution” is being said because they CAN’T, politically, say what they really want. Only what we call the fanatics on both sides admit that. The sad fact is that those fanatics are the honest ones. Their way of achieving what they want may be vicious and wrong, but they are honest in what they want. The politicians are not honest, on both sides.

So, what is the solution then and how the USA can support Israel and still be fair to all sides? Sometimes we don’t see the forest from the trees. This time we only have to look to our north Boarder to See the solution. It is the Canadian Model.

The “One State Solution”

One state with two, may be three provinces each with their own language and traditions but all citizens are free to live in either one. The provinces are “Israel”, “The West Bank” and “Gaza” of one country called “Palestine” shared by the Cousins who were raised in different environments but now came back to their home land. The details are not an impossible task. It could be worked out. Over time they will get to trust each other and hopefully look at this period of their common history as just another struggle they had to go through together.

The USA could be instrumental in making this solution a reality by convincing each side to give up a little in order to gain a lot. The USA could also offer Compensation to both sides for whatever reasonable claims they have and help in providing guarantees for both sides to be treated fairly by the central government of the new "Palestine".

Of course this is a “draft” of what could really be an acceptable solution to both sides but it needs the USA to act neutrally and have the interests of both sides at heart not just Israel. That is how a Superpower should act.

Comments (Page 1)
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on Jan 29, 2007
You're dreaming, mack. The only way there will ever be peace in the region is when one side finally gets the balls to commit total genocide on the other. They hate each other to the death.

The arabic side isn't afraid to resort to terrorism to acheive their goals, even if it means dying in the process, and the Israeli side isn't exactly afraid of commiting atrocities in order to stop the violence or achieve retribution.

If peace was achievable there, it would have been achieved. They don't want it, don't believe in it. Try again in another 500 years. Maybe.
on Jan 29, 2007
How well do you see the One State model working among the Sunnis, Kurds and Shiites in Iraq right now?

You might also want to read this article on the continuous Jewish presence in the Holy Land: Link

There were ALWAYS Jews in the Holy Land. Even when exiled from Jerusalem, there were Jewish communities in Galilee. There were Jews in Jerusalem when the forces of Islam invaded in 632. The Crusaders found Jews in Jerusalem and the Turks found them there. There were Jews welcoming the exiles back in the early years of Zionism. Even a cursory review of the history of the region will show you that.

The myth that all the Jews were exiled by the Romans and that there was no Jewish presence in the region for 2000 years is one that has been spread by Palestinian supporters who want people to come to exactly the conclusion that you have, which is that the Palestinians have some superior right to the land. They don't.

Jews would not be safe in a land with an Arab majority. Look at how Jews have fared in Arab lands over the last 40 years. They have been subject to torture, hanging and in most regions have been virtually exterminated.

Even if the Jewish factor was removed from the equation, there is a very low probability that there would be peace in the area. Look at the fighting between Fatah and Hamas today. Palestinian killing Palestinian. Or the bombings in Beirut. When a Shiite kills a Sunni, is that Israel's fault?

You really need to brush up on your current events.
on Jan 29, 2007

The “One State Solution”

One state with two, may be three provinces each with their own language and traditions but all citizens are free to live in either one.

Dont see how you can say it will work when it is not working in Canada to name one prominent nation.

on Jan 29, 2007
If peace was achievable there, it would have been achieved. They don't want it, don't believe in it


Not true, Not true at ALL. Take out the biased interference from outsiders and they will live together as they did for thousands of years. Don't Judge the situation by what you see now. outsiders used the "divide and concur" policy to get the two sides at each other's throat. They surely succeeded. If the USA acts as i described, they both would accept each other as they did before
on Jan 29, 2007
How well do you see the One State model working among the Sunnis, Kurds and Shiites in Iraq right now?


It worked fine for more than thousand year.

You judging by what you see now? Iraq is a 5000 year old nation. It always had Kurds and Arabs ( Saladin was a Kurd and he was never considered that way, he is a Muslim hero who liberated the land from the Crusaders. Sunnis, Kurds and Shia lived in the area together since the 8 th century.

Did you hear or read of a war between Iran or Iraq and any sunni country in the area till Sadam invaded Kuwait? Sadam was a sunni and when he started his wars with Iran and Kuwait both Sunnis and Shia fought with him and supported him. Those two wars were not religion-based wars it was greed and hunger for power on his part.

The myth that all the Jews were exiled by the Romans and that there was no Jewish presence in the region for 2000 years is one that has been spread by Palestinian supporters who want people to come to exactly the conclusion that you have, which is that the Palestinians have some superior right to the land. They don't.


Obviously you didnt read the full article. I said exactly that. Here is what i said: "when the Romans persecuted the Jewish population in the area surrounding Jerusalem and forced large numbers of them to flee to other countries including Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Morocco and of course to Europe". I didnt say all left and i said they moved to nearby contries in the region. And this is my point. They lived among the muslims and Christians with no problem before the creation of Israel.

I also said: " they are in reality distant cousins each claiming the same land. It is obvious that both are partially correct in that claim and neither one will ever be satisfied with only part of that land. " both have the same claim to the same land.

Even if the Jewish factor was removed from the equation, there is a very low probability that there would be peace in the area. Look at the fighting between Fatah and Hamas today


Again you looking at the consequences of ousider's intereference. these fights were never there before 1948.
on Jan 29, 2007
Dont see how you can say it will work when it is not working in Canada to name one prominent nation.


I say it will work based on the fact that the partition of the land was an artificial one and the two groups lived together with no major problems for thousands of years before and after the Crusaders. Jews, Muslims and Christians were always living in the area. It is not like there were NO jews living in Palestine and other countries in the region before 1948. and there were no wars between them.
on Jan 29, 2007
Not true, Not true at ALL. Take out the biased interference from outsiders and they will live together as they did for thousands of years. Don't Judge the situation by what you see now. outsiders used the "divide and concur" policy to get the two sides at each other's throat. They surely succeeded. If the USA acts as i described, they both would accept each other as they did before


ABSOLUTELY true! Both sides want the others DEAD! And "both" have publicly said so. You can't compare what "was" to what "is now"!
on Jan 29, 2007
You can't compare what "was" to what "is now"!


I hope you are not correct. but you may be. However, i think we should try. The region is worth the try and it is dear to all of us. we can't give up on it. That is what superpowers supposed to do. at least the good dones. the US can pressure each side to have some sense if we really are interested in the long-term security of Israel. Wars never secured anyone's future.
on Jan 30, 2007
You can't compare what "was" to what "is now"!


I hope you are not correct. but you may be. However, i think we should try. The region is worth the try and it is dear to all of us. we can't give up on it. That is what superpowers supposed to do. at least the good dones. the US can pressure each side to have some sense if we really are interested in the long-term security of Israel. Wars never secured anyone's future.


I'm sorry but I think you're off base. Not when you have veiled threats like this.


The Jews accepted the UN decision, but the Arabs rejected it. The resolution divided the land into two approximately equal portions in a complicated scheme with zig-zag borders


Maybe you should go read this. It might htlp you to understand better.

Link

Link

Link
on Jan 30, 2007
The Jews accepted the UN decision, but the Arabs rejected it. The resolution divided the land into two approximately equal portions in a complicated scheme with zig-zag borders

Maybe you should go read this. It might htlp you to understand better


Sure the "Jews" accepted it. But who Really accepted it? their leaders at the time for sure. If the Jewish people in general are satisfied with the UN decision, then how do you explain their unrelenting insistance on and actually building settlements everywhere even though this is illegal and against all UN and USA positions? how do you explain that?

Trust me, I know the area, its history and its people more than what you think. I lived and worked with both sides for a looong looong time. I am not shooting from the hip. from what i know, i believe with USA's help it could happen.

If you concentrate on the public declarations and threats by both sides, nothing could be done of course. As many said here and elsewhere, both sides want to eliminate each other. Is that really possible? Israel will eliminate 300 million people? and the Arabs will eliminate 13 or 14 million Israelis and Jews along with the USA? These are no more than empty dreams. it doesnt even qualify as a dream for either side. It is pure nonsense and both sides know it. You really think the mad Ahmadeinjad's statements are real? he and everyone in the area knows it.

Anyway, I said what i believe could work. If we didn't try so what is going to happen in the long run if things continue as they are now? can anyone imagine a senario for that? I would hate to think of it. Also, does anyone have another "Final" solution that is fair to both sides? I would love to hear that, and i will be the first to support it.

P.S.: After reading your links, there is nothing i can say other than "it all confirms that both sides have equal claims on the area called Palestine in 1948". Do you think any of them will ever forget that?
on Feb 19, 2007
"I mentioned the above in order to establish a fact that most of the people who are concerned about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict ignore: The current Palestinians Are the descendents of those who stayed, they are not some alien creatures from another lands."

What Zionists have a problem with is those people's willingness to kill Jews, before and since the foundation of the state of Israel.

The local Arabs have been attacking Jewish settlements for a long time before the creation of Israel and when more Jews arrived they attacked them too. In the 1930s, 20 years before the creation of Israel, their leaders co-operated with Germany in finding a solution for the common problem (the Jews).

And when Israel was founded, with a constitution that granted the same rights and privileges to its Jewish and Arab inhabitants, most of the Arabs supported the other Arab countries' attack and tried to kill all the Jews again.

Your plan for the region doesn't even take into account what the Zionists think is the greatest problem. The Jews do not want to be exterminated, not by foreigners and not by people who live in the same country. Any solution that changes an equation without changing the basic problem won't be a solution.

There are only two ways the problem can be _solved_:

1. We get the Jews to accept that they will be killed by Arab nationalists and/or Islamic fundamentalists because they are "pig and apes".

2. We get the Arabs to stop supporting nationalism and Islamic fundamentalism and teach them that killing Jews is wrong.


The second solution worked in Germany.
on Feb 19, 2007

It is obvious that both are partially correct in that claim and neither one will ever be satisfied with only part of that land. This fact is very clear to anyone who knows both sides


You are dead wrong.

You completely ignore and underestimate Israel's fear of death. After the holocaust and after countless Arab claims that the Jews should all be killed, what Israel wants most is security, not all the land. Israel was _always_ happy with only part of the land and did _never_ reject any peace agreement that would have left Israel with only part of the land. You ignore that fact and that's why your entire argument is wrong.

I might not know both sides, but I know one of the sides.

And your proposal does not even address the most basic issue for the Israelis. They do not want to be killed.

One side wants to kill the other. A peace agreement means a compromise. How do you compromise with an enemy who wants to kill you? Let them kill 3 million Jews instead of 6?
on Feb 19, 2007
Sure the "Jews" accepted it. But who Really accepted it? their leaders at the time for sure. If the Jewish people in general are satisfied with the UN decision, then how do you explain their unrelenting insistance on and actually building settlements everywhere even though this is illegal and against all UN and USA positions? how do you explain that?


You are deliberatly missing the point. The Israeli government as a whole accepted the decision and so did the general population. And just an fyi....there has been NO "unrelenting insistance on and actually building settlements everywhere even though this is illegal and against all UN and USA positions"! When did they build their last settlement?
Because if you're talking about this?

By John Ward Anderson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, July 23, 2004; Page A26


JERUSALEM, July 22 -- Jewish settlements and outposts are growing rapidly in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, despite Israeli pledges to the United States to stop the expansion of such communities and dismantle some of them, according to Israeli government statistics and a report released Thursday by settlement opponents.



The growth is particularly pronounced in the Gaza Strip, where Israel's prime minister, Ariel Sharon, has proposed removing all Jewish settlers and the Israeli soldiers protecting them by the end of 2005. A little more than 8,000 settlers occupy approximately 40 percent of the land in the Gaza Strip; about 1.3 million Palestinians live on the remaining 60 percent.


Then you AND them are full of bs! Cause "this" says different!


Posted August 12, 2005.
On Monday, Israel's anticipated evacuation of 25 settlements in Gaza and the northern West Bank swings into motion. With it, thousands of families are forced to abandon their homes and their lives.

GAN OR, GAZA - Soon to be evacuated and later demolished, the house of Shimon and Sara Snir now sits in shambles.

The painting of a wizened rabbi rests on the salon floor amid a maze of Israeli army-issued boxes brimming with toys and puzzles. A power screwdriver whirs as bed frames are undone. Outside, a ditch has been dug around an olive tree that will be uprooted.

Thirteen years ago the couple followed faith and a dream to Gaza, which they believed to be part of the biblical birthright of the Jewish state. Now, like many of the 8,500 Jewish settlers bracing for Israel's withdrawal from Gaza next week, their family of nine has reluctantly begun to gather up their belongings. The moving truck arrives Sunday.

"You can't leave anything. If you don't take it, [the army] will destroy it," says Shimon Snir, while supervising a Palestinian worker taking apart a gazebo. "There's so much to pack we don't even know where to start."


Or this;


Giving up dreams, Gaza businesses are leaving
By Greg Myre The New York Times

Published: July 4, 2006


GAZA When Israel left the Gaza Strip last year, Palestinian business executives dreamed of new investments, humming factories and an economic revival.

Instead, conditions deteriorated so sharply that some of Gaza's leading industrialists have packed up and moved their operations to Egypt and other Arab states.

The inability of the Hamas-led government to pay public workers has received much attention, but the financial crisis in the private sector is similarly acute, with dozens of factories closing or relocating to neighboring countries.

"These are successful businessmen who survived many difficult years when the Israelis were in Gaza," said Wadie el-Masri, the general manager of an industrial park near the Karni crossing, where goods cross to and from Israel. "Now the situation is worse than ever, and many are leaving. This shows how bad the environment is."

Palestinian businesses place most of the blame on Israel and its extended closing of the Karni crossing, Gaza's lifeline to the commercial world. It has been open for less than 40 days this year for the export of goods made in the strip, Palestinian officials said.

Since the beginning of the year, 48 of the 60 factories have shut, at least temporarily, in Masri's now listless industrial zone, called Palestine Industrial Development. Most make clothes or furniture, and all export to Israel or other countries.



So if you're going to talk the talk....at least try to stay current on what you're talking about.
on Feb 19, 2007
The local Arabs have been attacking Jewish settlements for a long time before the creation of Israel and when more Jews arrived they attacked them too. In the 1930s, 20 years before the creation of Israel, their leaders co-operated with Germany in finding a solution for the common problem (the Jews).


so what happens between the time the romans left in ~ 700's AD to 1930, doesnt count? don't you see what you just proved? the only problem during 1200 yrs was during the existence of the crusaders there, after that and till 1930's there was no problem either. I will even go a little back further than that to 1897 when Britain started the ball rolling to the creation of Israel.

yes from that point on voilence started when the "settlements" started. The jews never lived in settlemnets before that. they lived as any other citizen in all the region till the idea of "settlements" started to appear.

The current violence is taking over the thinking and if we allow that, then no way we can think clearly.

There are only two ways the problem can be _solved_:1. We get the Jews to accept that they will be killed by Arab nationalists and/or Islamic fundamentalists because they are "pig and apes".2. We get the Arabs to stop supporting nationalism and Islamic fundamentalism and teach them that killing Jews is wrong.The second solution worked in Germany.


if you take the extremists' propaganda out, there is no support in the Muslim world for this kind of thinking and all Muslims know very well that killing anyone, particularly the "people of the Book" is a grave sin.

Let's not give the extremists the satisfaction by letting their ignorant and vicious thinking cloud our thinking.
on Feb 19, 2007
You completely ignore and underestimate Israel's fear of death. After the holocaust and after countless Arab claims that the Jews should all be killed, what Israel wants most is security, not all the land. Israel was _always_ happy with only part of the land and did _never_ reject any peace agreement that would have left Israel with only part of the land. You ignore that fact and that's why your entire argument is wrong.


I am the one who is ignoring the facts? i wish i was.

Who is not afraid of death? are'nt we all not just Israelis?

and i said lets look at the people's not the politicians' or the extremists statements. Who killed Rabin? and why? and who is building the settlements allover the land? the people know it is their land, politicians try to have half-baked solution and obviously it is not working. is it? if it was we won't be having this discussion.

This idea was never offered by any politician, let them try and see what happens. Lets see if the majority on both sides support it or not. i bet you they will, overwhelmingly i believe.

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