Let's Think Together
You have to look everywhere
Published on February 2, 2007 By ThinkAloud In Religion
Several yeas ago I read a book about "God and the New Physics" (by Paul Davis - pb.1984, Simon &Schuster). It is a good book, but selectivity is rampant in it. In all what the author lists as blatant contradiction between science and religion he mainly uses the Old and the New Testaments. Although he mentioned Islam in the beginning, he never took Islam's view in the matter into consideration.

No where is this selectivity so obvious than when searching for the "Truth" about how we and our universe were created and about our relationship with the "Creator". Scientists and Theologians are searching for the same "Truth" each from a different angle and with different tools. However, no matter how different are the angles or the tools, there are few basic principles that they both theoretically share. Both say that they rely mainly on "Logic" And "Evidence". Of course that "Evidence" relies heavily on an element of "faith". The scientists have faith in their methods and results and theologians have faith in the people who relayed the words of God to them. Unfortunately in most discussions, they both selectively pick and chose their "Logic" and their "Evidence".

Because of this selectivity, they both find contradictions and incompatibilities either within the other’s view or between their view and the other’s view. This is because sometimes incomplete truths or falsehoods are used and sometimes ignoring logic entirely is used.

I was reminded of that book while following recent dicussions here on JU about God, Good, Bad ....etc and I can safely say that the author of that book, as a scientist, usually uses All the facts available to him whenever he discusses any purely scientific topic. Considering the known fact that a good deal of human input went into the writings of both of the OT and the NT while Qura'an is considered (by Muslims) to be the direct and literal words of God, it is very strange that the author ignores a source that claims to be the actual words of God and relies solely on the two texts that don’t claim that. If he had included Qura'an in his discussion, ALL the contradictions that he pointed out would have been resolved.

For Example: The famous contradiction is the age of the Universe. All of the three Books say it was created in Six Days. The OT and the NT say nothing further than that. and it is understood by both religions as just "Six Days". This is obviously in clear contradiction to the scientific evidence that to go from the instant of the Big Bang (the light as it is called in the three books) when creation started to where you have seven heavens, stars, planets and moons you need billions of years. Had he consulted the third book, he would have realized that there really is no contradiction. Qura'an clearly says in many separate verses the Following: one time it says "And the Day of your Lord is 100,000 years of what you count". and in another verse it says "And the Day of your Lord is 50,000 years of what you count", and still in another it says "And the Day of you Lord is 20,000 years of what you count". It is amazing that more than 1425 years ago, there was a book talking about the relativity of time and its changing duration depending on where you are. Those "Six Days of your Lord" could easily be the billions of years of what we count that are needed for the universe to reach the point when Adam was created i.e. when there was Earth. No contradiction there.

Another example is the God/Adam/Eve/Snake (Satan) conflict. The OT/NT narrative presents many problems: why were Adam and Eve being tested? Did they have a choice in the matter? Why did Satan deceive Eve and Adam? and many other logical questions. Of course OT/NT believers have answers to these questions, but all these answers are not based on God's own words. It is based on the interpretation of the human input into the two books. and the answers themselves pose many logical questions.

However, Qura'an claims to be the literal and direct words of God, so at least he should have checked what it says about that conflict. If he had done that, he would have found that All the questions that he posed have a very logical answer in Qura'an's narrative

Religion/Science debate is not the only arena where incomplete information or biased one sided view clouds the vision of whoever is looking for any "Truth" . This distortion exists in most of what people generally discuss and that makes it almost impossible to reach a general agreement on any thing no matter how simple it is.

I don’t know if this is intentional bias in order to discredit the other's view or is it just natural tendencies to prove ourselves right and the others wrong regardless of the situation

Comments (Page 1)
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on Feb 02, 2007
Your first mistake is assuming that the Inconceivable's actions have to be logical in the first place. Logic is a human construct


While it is true that the inconceivable does not lend itself to logic, the "Truth" that is "Humanly Knowable" and we search for must be. If you read the words of God in His Books, you sure will see that He is logical in all his dialogues with His Prophets and with humans in general. Logic and Reason are integral to His dealings with us. We learned it from Him, we did not construct/create it.
on Feb 07, 2007
God wrote a book?


He revealed his words to his prophets, and they wrote or instructed others to write the books we see now. The problem i am pointing out is this: in the OT/NT there is no dispute about the fact that what we see in them now has a significan amount of input from people that were not with Moses or Jesus. accordingly, we cant say that their input is God's words. On the other hand, Quran, as Muslims believe, is unadultrated document for God's words. Literally and word for word and all of it was documented in written form under the eyes of Prophet Mohammad himslef.

considering that, whoever is looking for truth - whatever the difinition is - about God should consider the three books regardless of whetehr he/she believes in them or not since they are the books that supposedly contain His words about Himself, us, life and everything else.

I never said i read All the books about God (where did you get that?), but yes i read His 3 books (well, Qura'an and the bible which contains the OT/NT to be exact) . the others are opinions about Him, and some are correct and some are not. But i am not even close in reading a fraction of those. I can have my opinion based on His words not based on others opinion about His words.

As I pointed out before, it would take a lifetime of constant reading to persuse everything that every man ever had to say about God


of course, i was talking about those who write about God. Thay should at least read His words first in all of supposedly His 3 books. If they only read two of them, then they cant claim that He is this or that since they dont know what he say about this and that in the third book, can they? they should have the full picture if they are interested in a true search about Him.
on Feb 12, 2007
in the OT/NT there is no dispute about the fact that what we see in them now has a significan amount of input from people that were not with Moses or Jesus. accordingly, we cant say that their input is God's words


How so? You mean...you 'won't say? It's not can't. It's won't. Because you believe the Quran over the OT/NT.

Have you read in it's entirety the whole counsel of God? By that, I'm talking OT/NT.
On the other hand, Quran, as Muslims believe, is unadultrated document for God's words. Literally and word for word and all of it was documented in written form under the eyes of Prophet Mohammad himslef.


this is a double sided argument. Just as the Muslims believe the Quran is unadultrated so to do the Christians believe the bible is unadultrated.

Here's a grid you might be interested in since you are seeking truth. You should be able to see that both can't be from God. There's too many contradictions for it to be so.

WWW Link
on Feb 12, 2007
How so? You mean...you 'won't say? It's not can't. It's won't. Because you believe the Quran over the OT/NT.


No, not at all that i "won't say", i am NOW looking in the Bible. it clearly has many many statements that are clearly not the words of God. The bible ITSELF doesn't even claim that. God's words usually are in Quotes, after saying God then said " such and such ..... ". Dont deny the obvious KFC. The Bible is a collectionn of what people remember what God said as told by Moses and the other prophets. Accordingly, it is sometimes incomplete and sometimes does not represent the exact words of God due to the translations or because the documentation of what was said was not exhaustive and accurate due to the fact that the effort to write it was decades after jesus was raised.

Qura'an on the other hand, according to Muslims, does not have a single word outside God's own words. and it was written during Muhammad's life. and reading the book itself it clearly does not have anything to suggest that something was inserted between God's words

Have you read in it's entirety the whole counsel of God? By that, I'm talking OT/NT.


yes i have of course. and even in the preface the Authors' say how it was written. it has God's words there for sure. not all of it and not exactly in some cases. Qura'an was revealed in Arabic and is written in Arabic. no translations required, and it has no words outside God's words. Muhammad's own statements are written in other books. and he made sure that the revelations are kept separate from his own words.

Read its history and see how it was documented. it is very interesting and the original copy still exist in London's Museum and I think also in Turkey's.

this is a double sided argument. Just as the Muslims believe the Quran is unadultrated so to do the Christians believe the bible is unadultrated


Of course, and by looking at the grid you linked to, it is very clear that the two are very very similar. they only differ in details.

I noticed that in the Grid, it says that " no atonement work" in Islam. That is very untrue. Qura'an says that repentance and good deeds are the way to atone for sins. not just confession. this difference and others could be due to the way the Bible was translated and written. But in general they only differ in details and completeness. not in fundamentals.

Believe it or not when i read some English translations of the Qura'an, i can see how translation can mislead and not convey the real meaning of the original verse. I know and studied Arabic and i can see the difference in both the original and the translated. That is why it is no surprise to me , and no disregard either, that the Bible is the way it is.

You should be able to see that both can't be from God. There's too many contradictions for it to be so.


if you consider the fundamentals, you and I can surely see that they are both from God. Go to the origin of the contardictions in both books and you will see that the Bible is the source of that contradiction due to the reasons i outlined above.

However, regardless of one's view it is always a must to look for what both sources say if we really looking for some kind of a full picture.

The claim that Muhammad wrote Qura'an is unsupported in anyway by the historical facts. He was illeterate. and if you read Arabic you will see that not even an accompolished auther can say or make these verses of Qura'an. But there are more logical reasons that proves that the book is not a work of any normal human let alone an illeterate unschooled (in anything) man. The internet is full of sites that provide a good material on that subject if you are interested.



on Feb 12, 2007
I noticed that in the Grid, it says that " no atonement work" in Islam. That is very untrue. Qura'an says that repentance and good deeds are the way to atone for sins. not just confession. this difference and others could be due to the way the Bible was translated and written. But in general they only differ in details and completeness. not in fundamentals.


No, I think you may be misunderstanding what atone means. It means at one with God that could only be done by the blood. Atonement is really an OT word and one that was used for the blood that would atone for the people's sins. What is being said is that while Christians believe in the atonment of Christ's death on the cross for our sins, the Muslims believe in no such thing. That is an essential and a big criteria for the Christian Faith. Without that we have nothing. Christianity is all built around the death, and resurrection of Christ. So that would be a big fundamental they disagree on. Without the atoning blood of Christ we have nothing.

I know and studied Arabic and i can see the difference in both the original and the translated. That is why it is no surprise to me , and no disregard either, that the Bible is the way it is.


I do not know Arabic. My son tho is studying this language for the AF. Have you ever read any of the objections to the Muslim faith from former Muslims? Have you ever heard of Ergun Mehmet Caner? You may want to check him out. His Muslim family all but his father converted to Christianity and he has alot to say about the Quran.

Go to the origin of the contardictions in both books and you will see that the Bible is the source of that contradiction due to the reasons i outlined above.


But that's just it. There are NO contradictions in scripture. I can't find any. Those that are deemed contradictions are not. They are explained quite easily using another part of scripture. People like to believe it is filled with contradictions to appease their conscience of having to adhere to its teachings. It frees them up so to speak to believe what they want.

Don't you find it strange that Muhammad himself thought he was possessed by demons? What if he were right? It was his wife that talked him out of that notion. Do you know right now that there is a list of 10 countries that are the worst persecutors of Christianity and six of them are Muslim led? Doesn't that say something? No, they are not both on the same page.

You cannot reconcile as hard as you'd like the Muslim faith and the Christian one.



on Feb 13, 2007
You cannot reconcile as hard as you'd like the Muslim faith and the Christian one.


I am not trying to do that. All i am saying is this. Look at all sources of religion if you really looking for the truth. Every one can then decide what is truth for one's own faith. The reasons you mentioned that makes you disregard Qura'an are the same that could be made about the Bible. If you look at both without bias and take them at their face value you will be closer to the truth. that is my opinion, But then again, that is me.

I understand what you saying about atonement, Qura'an way is as i descibed. the word means two different things for the two faiths but they reach the same goal which is forgiveness from God for the sins committed.

on Feb 13, 2007
Look at all sources of religion if you really looking for the truth. Every one can then decide what is truth for one's own faith.


I actually agree with you here to a degree. We need to examine and look at things closely. While I've never been Muslim I've been just about everything else in my quest for truth. I have studied Islam quite a bit since it's so prevalent. I see alot of similarities, between many of the cults and the Muslim faith. I don't believe they are from God but I do believe he's allowing them to exist and flourish.

While I admit to not reading the Quran in full, I've read parts of it. I've read parts of the Gnostic Gospels as well. Many people believe those lost books are truth. As a JW we had truth books we handed out. As an Adventist I handed out books by Ellen White that were "up there." Pearl of a Great Price was another book we sent around as Mormons with the Book of Mormon.

I've read and seen so much and all the while the bible has been the only book that has held up not only to my srunity but countless others as well. I believe it's the only book that isn't lying to us.

I think the bible is the only truth book out there.



on Feb 13, 2007
Don't you find it strange that Muhammad himself thought he was possessed by demons? What if he were right? It was his wife that talked him out of that notion


Isn't that what every other human who was in direct communication with God felt at the start? Moses was scared and ran away on the mountain from HIM. Mary was terrified when informed by Gabriel that she will carry a baby, Even Abraham when he got the dream to sacrifice his son got terrified and didnt act on it till God repeated the order in a succession of dreams.

The fact that Mohammad himself did not know proves that he did not invent that whole idea. His wife took him to her cousin who was a christian (Ibn Waraqa) who told him "what you saw is the Same as waht happened to Moses" wait and see what comes next. and the rest is history.

If Mohammad was not truthful he would have pretended that it was a revelation from the begining. He was just like Moses, terrified first, what came next calmed him down and showed him that it is God. that is what Muslim texts say. so this point is really a proof for his message not against it.
on Feb 13, 2007
Isn't that what every other human who was in direct communication with God felt at the start? Moses was scared and ran away on the mountain from HIM. Mary was terrified when informed by Gabriel that she will carry a baby, Even Abraham when he got the dream to sacrifice his son got terrified and didnt act on it till God repeated the order in a succession of dreams.


I don't see Mary terrified nor do I know what you're talking about with Abraham. And you might want to check Ex 3 when Moses first met God....nope nothing on being terrified.

Not that I'd blame them. One thing you do notice in scripture tho is when the angels came they always said the same thing..."Do not Be Afraid." When the supernatural touches the natural this statement was always given. But nope I don't know what you are referring. Would you like to give me scriptures on this? Luke 2 and Exodus 3 might be a start.

If Mohammad was not truthful he would have pretended that it was a revelation from the begining. He was just like Moses, terrified first, what came next calmed him down and showed him that it is God. that is what Muslim texts say. so this point is really a proof for his message not against it.


I'm not saying Mohammud wasn't truthful. I'm saying we always need to test the spirits to see if they are of God or not. I think Mohammud was right in his assesment. I don't think it was from God only one that was pretending to be God. Again, I'd go by the fruits of the spirit.

Chritiantiy is about loving someone to God. Islam is all about submission, not only to Allah but also to Islam. It's about force and control. This is not the God I worship. To say that six out of 10 countries are severely persecuting Christians are Muslim is a very big clue.

on Feb 13, 2007
I believe it's the only book that isn't lying to us.

I think the bible is the only truth book out there.



The truth MUST hold to logic and MUST be consistence. As it is written now, the Bible has a problem with these two criteria. Many others pointed that to you on your blog. and the funny thing is all these problems are easily and logically resolved when you see what Qura'an says about the same points that people raised. and i answered few for them there, But you chose to ignore that completely. which is ok but based on that you cant claim that the Bible as is NOW is the "only truth book out there". You can of course believe what you choose but please dont make claims you are not able to support.

All your arguments in response to the comments you recieved are not consistent.

One very obvious point that should make you wonder is this: If the Bible (as we see it now) is the true words of God without human input in it, how come there is so many versions of the faith using so many versions of the book . not only that, but the same version is revised every once in a while. God's words are not a history book to be revised as time passes.

One more point, we are talking about the Books of God themselves not what someone says about them. if you didnt read it fully and understood what it says completely, i suggest that you do before making your claim.

on Feb 13, 2007
I don't see Mary terrified nor do I know what you're talking about with Abraham. And you might want to check Ex 3 when Moses first met God....nope nothing on being terrified.


Exodus 3 might be a start


my goodness KFC. You really are something : Here is what Exodus 3.5 says at the very end: "and Moses hid his face , for he was AFRAID to look at God"

and you still arguing that you dont know what i am talking about?

this statement i just qouted proves two main points you refuse to accept:

1- it is clearly not a statement from God. It is a human input from whoever wrote it describing what he heard. Not an exact statement from God. just a description of something happened between God and Moses.
2- That even that human input indicates that moses was AFRAID.

Qura'an tells the same story complete with God's own words. It says why he was afraid and how God calmed him.

Same thing with Abraham's and Mary's Stories. They are not just a recollection of someone's memory and verbalization. It is in God's own words in its original language. not even a translation involved.


I don't think it was from God only one that was pretending to be God. Again, I'd go by the fruits of the spirit.


You really think this is logical arguemnet? you just think this or that? this is not search for truth KFC. take the book and argue with it not what you or I think. if the words dont agree with what you believe, you say you dont think they are correct?

you must reach whether they are correct or not based on what they say and on whether that is logical and consistence not on what you think.

Islam is all about submission, not only to Allah but also to Islam. It's about force and control. This is not the God I worship


You certainly dont know Islam then. it is far far from what you said. where did you get that idea? it is an amazing thing to do for someone who claims that she is looking for truth. you just said something that utterly not true about Islam.
on Feb 13, 2007
my goodness KFC. You really are something : Here is what Exodus 3.5 says at the very end: "and Moses hid his face , for he was AFRAID to look at God"


yes, but that's not what you said...you said this...

Moses was scared and ran away on the mountain from HIM


and you are misunderstanding 3:5....Moses looked away from God because he was afraid to "look upon God."

This is alot diff than how you're presenting it. While I'm sure there was some fear there to some extent it wasn't the same kind of fear you're saying. He didn't run away. Scripture says no one can LOOK at God and live. Later we see that God passes by Moses so Moses can get a "glimpse" of him without dying.

Same thing with Abraham's and Mary's Stories. They are not just a recollection of someone's memory and verbalization. It is in God's own words in its original language. not even a translation involved.


you're making assertions you cannot back up. Show me where Abraham had countless dreams before he sacrificed Isaac like you asserted and the same with Mary. Show me the proof text. You are saying things that are not right. I brought you to Ex 3. Did n't you think I'd know what it said?

You certainly dont know Islam then. it is far far from what you said. where did you get that idea? it is an amazing thing to do for someone who claims that she is looking for truth. you just said something that utterly not true about Islam.


I'll get back to you later....since I don't have alot of time now and give you what a former Muslim said about Islam being all about Submission. I would think he would know more than I. I would defer to someone that has been there.

you cant claim that the Bible as is NOW is the "only truth book out there". You can of course believe what you choose but please dont make claims you are not able to support.


I most certainly can make these claims. I can support. Stay tuned. Later I'm going to write more on this on my blog. Maybe tomorrow.

If the Bible (as we see it now) is the true words of God without human input in it, how come there is so many versions of the faith using so many versions of the book . not only that, but the same version is revised every once in a while. God's words are not a history book to be revised as time passes


this is easy. First off I never said the bible was without human input. It most certainly was. God who is infallible used fallible men to write his words for him.

There's nothing wrong with the diff versions. We have diff versions of the dictionary also. It doesn't make it wrong. It modernizes it in our own langages. First we had the King James Version. Then we realized we don't talk with thees and thous so it was changed to you and yours or truly truly instead of verily verily. Nothing wrong with that. I can sit down and read the NIV, KJV, NKJV or the NASB and see that it all says the same thing....they just use diff words for the same thing....for instance, corpse might be in one version and body in another or eagle instead of bird. Nothing wrong with that.....but important to remember it was in the original languages of Hebrew and Gk that are important, not our English versions. While I believe they are true enough they had to be translated from the original langauge and while it's good it can't be perfect.

One more point, we are talking about the Books of God themselves not what someone says about them. if you didnt read it fully and understood what it says completely, i suggest that you do before making your claim.


what claim? Why am I not being consistent? You keep making accusations but are not clear in what they are. You still have not answered my question on contradictions either. If you are really a truth seeker, as you say, then you would look into all these claims you're making as well. Where did Abraham do what you said? Where did Moses run away afraid off the mountain? Where did Mary do what you said? What are the contradictions you are saying? Why am I being inconsistent? I see you're not backing up your claims here.

I'm not seeing much logic here. If you really want to discuss I will, but just don't make assertions that you can't back up.




on Feb 13, 2007
you're making assertions you cannot back up. Show me where Abraham had countless dreams before he sacrificed Isaac like you asserted and the same with Mary. Show me the proof text. You are saying things that are not right. I brought you to Ex 3. Did n't you think I'd know what it said?


if you go to the story of Moses, Abraham and Mary in Qura'an you will see what i mean. When i said Ran away, it wasn't meant that he was rejecting God. it was just a human reaction to something that was not normal. In case of Moses, God told him, come back and "dont be afraid". In case of Mary, she pleaded with Gabriel to go away and leave her alone, but he calmed her and assured her that he was sent by God. Qura'an details the three stories in much more details. Those details are the ones that make things clear and not contraversial. here is moses story in qura'an:chapter 28, V.29 - 39. verse 31 specificaly says (literal translation): "And drop your staff, when he saw it shaking he RAN AWAYand didnt even look back. O' Moses come back and dont be afraid. you are safe".

I can give you all the references. This really is not the issue. these are details. The point is if we looking for the whole picture, i think we should look at all sources.
on Feb 13, 2007
I'll get back to you later....since I don't have alot of time now and give you what a former Muslim said about Islam being all about Submission. I would think he would know more than I. I would defer to someone that has been there.


that is not the way to look for truth KFC. others opinions are theirs, you shouldnt take others' opinions as a reference. the book itself is the reference not what someone say about it.

And yes, Islam is about submission .... ONLY TO GOD. not to anything or anyone else. that is not what you said. and the idea is this: by submitting only to God humans dont have to submit to anyone or anything else. He is their creator and He is the only being desrves that submission. By that God elevates humans over all else. no one is controlling any human's destinay except Him and humans dont have to rely on anyone or anything other than Him. That way they dont have to comptomise their opinions, their believes or their actions that they believe is according to God's guidelines as stated in Qura'an.


this is easy. First off I never said the bible was without human input. It most certainly was. God who is infallible used fallible men to write his words for him.


Now we agree on something. AND that is my point. Qura'an claims to be the Direct and literal words of god. no human words there as per the prophet himself.

remeber i said that is a CLIAM. just like the Claim that of the the Bible except it says no human input in it. if you are neutral then you look at both. i am not saying believe that or this. but just see what both say about any issue equally then decide which one is complete and more logical. that is all i am saying. this way you know what all the claims are.

There's nothing wrong with the diff versions. We have diff versions of the dictionary also. It doesn't make it wrong. It modernizes it in our own langages


Again that is my point. God's words are not a Dictionary or a history book that needs to be revised or modernized. if we , humans, inject something in his book, who authorised that? he certainly did not. no prophets or messengers anymore for the last 1400 years. We cant change a human author's book without his permission, how in the world can we do that with God's books????

what claim? Why am I not being consistent? You keep making accusations but are not clear in what they are. You still have not answered my question on contradictions either. If you are really a truth seeker, as you say, then you would look into all these claims you're making as well. Where did Abraham do what you said? Where did Moses run away afraid off the mountain? Where did Mary do what you said? What are the contradictions you are saying? Why am I being inconsistent? I see you're not backing up your claims here


comon KFC. I referred you to Qura'an but you refuse to consider it. that is where you will see the difference.

one example of the contradictions in the Bible is this: at one point in Gen.16.15 it says Abraham was 86 when Ismael was born. then Gen. 21.5 it says Abraham was 100 when Isaac was born. this clearly makes Ismael 13-14 yrs old. Then here is the contradiction: 21.14 and 21.15 it says Hagar put Ismael along with the skin of water on her shoulder and in the desrt she put the child under a bush.

Does this make sinse? a 13 or 14 years old boy is put on his mother's shoulder and then put by her under a bush?

i am not trying to count or point out the contradictions here because i think it is due to human input there not a contradiction in god's words. and this makes me say we have to see what the other book that says it has no human input says about the same point. it may clear the issue. and it sure does. since it clearly says that Ismael was taken with his mother to the desert way before Isaac was born and when he was a baby.

Another point that i really think is very offensive to God is the story of Lot and his two daughters. Do you really think that God will allow any of His prophets to commit incest? all his prophets are imune to that kind of actions. HE protects them even if the circumstances put them in a compromising position.

i am sure that is one of things that human input caused, not the words of God.

i think you said yourself, "if it make sense, why look anywhere else" but what if it doesnt? that is my point. that is where you are inconsistent, you refuse to look somewhere else if you find something in the bible that doesnt make sense. In other words your position sounds like this : look only to the bibel whether it makes sense or not.

and if it does not you try to make it so. but it doesnt work.
on Feb 14, 2007
one example of the contradictions in the Bible is this: at one point in Gen.16.15 it says Abraham was 86 when Ismael was born. then Gen. 21.5 it says Abraham was 100 when Isaac was born. this clearly makes Ismael 13-14 yrs old. Then here is the contradiction: 21.14 and 21.15 it says Hagar put Ismael along with the skin of water on her shoulder and in the desrt she put the child under a bush.

Does this make sinse? a 13 or 14 years old boy is put on his mother's shoulder and then put by her under a bush?


ok, now this is something I can relate to. If you give me specifics. I can address it. But I can't to vague assertions. So let's look at this logically.

Ishamel was about 14 yrs old when Isaac was born. This is fact.

This is what Gen 21:14-15 says:

And Abraham rose up early in the morning and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. And the water was spent in the bottle and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

I see that Abraham put the water on her shoulders. Not the child. He allowed her to take the child with her. He didn't put this child on her shoulders. Only the water. When all was hopeless, she put the child under the shrub for him to die since she couldn't bear him to see him die. So putting him under a bush is a problem? How?

Anyhow this wouldn't be called a contradiction. A contradiction is when something is said to have happened in a specific manner and then later said differently.

Another point that i really think is very offensive to God is the story of Lot and his two daughters. Do you really think that God will allow any of His prophets to commit incest? all his prophets are imune to that kind of actions. HE protects them even if the circumstances put them in a compromising position.


Lot wasn't a prophet. Where do you get that he was? I would agree that God wouldn't have picked his prophets if they had such inclinations. He set them apart from their mother's womb.

See, the problem isn't the bible is all mixed up because of human writers. It's all mixed up because of OUR understanding of it. If God is truly God, don't you think he would leave his words in capable hands? I think so. From what you wrote here I have to say, it's not the bible but your understanding of it that is the issue.
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