You went off the beam as soon as you went into the "empire building" arena.

how is that? please explain. may be i am missing something.

WaHH WAHH WAHHH! Poor widdle baby feewing picked on these days?

keep provin me right lil girl,,,you are doin a GREAT job!

and sorry, no cryin, no whinin,,,just facts. facts that you just confirmed.

this is how it starts,,,then expect every piece of evidence to be "lawyered" as if we were in criminal court.

Yeah, folks. Let's not confuse the issues with the FACTS.

I have proven John Kerry to be a puppy mutilator, and Fred Harteis to be a superhero using this incredible reach of logic!

the col, next to me, is probably the most "ganged up on" brave soul who dares speak against the administration on this blog site. the col's credibility is fine with everyone else,,,not to say he's rigt about everything, but his efforts and views are obviously sincere and he does as much, if not more research than most before opening his mouth.

Please...virtually everyone here has criticized the administration at one time or another. When you lionize Col. Gene, you lose all credibility.

Assuming what you say that the Col's credibility is fine with everyone else, please show me a link to anyone in the DNC who uses Col. Gene as source material. Can't find it? Ok, then, how about a prominent member of the Green Party? No, how about Cindy Sheehan? Does even a pathetic hack like her use Col. Gene for source material? Nope, and you know why? Because they'd get flamed like a cheap marshmallow over molten lava in open debate.

There are many, many of us who wholly support our foreign policies, especially in regards to Israel.

I could ask you to provide a proof for that too. and i am sure you would. and it will be some poll or study from a think tank or a group from the "many many " you mentioned. of course that counts as a proof for you. However this would be what is called circular proof. it doesn't lead to any thing.

Instead, i am going to answer your point: i am aware that 10 or 20 million people are many many of course. but that is not a majority if you consider that there are roughly about 110 million who have an opinion ( that is voters in last general election).

Why don't you just admit that you pulled the statement straight out of your ass, that you have no 'proof,' and that you just like to assume you speak for 'the majority of Americans' whether you really do or not?

well, do you have a proof of that too?

u see what i mean? all that doesnt lead to any thing. just debates about nothing. you can call it Seinfeld debate.

don't tell me that there was a study about the location from which i pull my statements and about the accuracy of these statements. that would be very scary for me, because i am not aware of such study or survey . Comon LW, just answer the argument. it is more effecient that way.

but getting to the main point, from what you say i understand that the majority of the american people were supporting the wars in Korea, Vietnam and now in Iraq? or our policy toward South Africa for many decades? or our policy of being the world's Policeman? or our dependence on foreign oil?or our support of dictators and backward regimes in the middle east?
if that is the case, then i believe that there is nothing in this world that would convince you otherwise. and that is fine by me too. it is just your opinion and so was my statement.

Then by all means, express your opinion. That doesn't mean a 'majority' of Americans share it.

isn't that an opinion? and it was based on all the information that i read and watched. right or wrong, still it is my opinion about how "the majority of americans" feel about the policies.

I think the fact that the "proof" issue took over the discussion here is a proof in itself of how "asking for a proof" deflected the direction away from the main point which was " why our elected governments generally pursue foreign policies, specially the military policies, that are not supported by the majority of americans". There was only two or three relevant responses and the rest are regarding the "proof".
in meaningful debates you generally assume the other side is honest, you answer the point and prove it wrong if you can logically or by supporting data. it is not the otherway around. you dont ask for a proof every time you hear something you disagree with. This is exactly like asking the accused to provide proof of his innocense. and asking for a proof for an opinion or a claim implies that you assume that the speaker/writer is lieing. isn't it? that is not debating. if you think "it" is wrong, just argue against it. it is that simple. no need for going to side issue.

may be i am missing something.

There's an understatement.

Firstly, the United States isn't an empire. Secondly, at no time has the U.S. undertaken "empire building". That's just so much meaningless hyperbole that does little more than detract from an already sadly mistaken article.

There, do your own research next time. And learn what the word "majority" means, while you're at it.

Good, that you finally concentrated on the issue. And i will look up th meaning of the word "Majority".

The issue was not just Israel. Even if it was. I answered that by saying: We can still support Israel without creating new enemies.
The main issue was and still is the foreign policy in general. and like i said before polls and studies can and usually do mislead if you looking for a general assessment. polls are an "instant" measure not a long term indicators.

I just heared on the news 10 mint ago, that 75% of the people do not support the current Iraq Policy. also it says , only 26% support GWB's policies (it was NBC poll, if u need a proof). Now, which one is correct? but in general the last election and all the news from congress indicate that the Majority are not happy with our current policy.

anyway. it was my opinion, and i still believe that. that doesnt mean we start fighting about that, does it?

I can see that you dont agree with me, and isn't that what debates are all about?

Firstly, the United States isn't an empire. Secondly, at no time has the U.S. undertaken "empire building". That's just so much meaningless hyperbole that does little more than detract from an already sadly mistaken article.

If what you saying is true, why then are we spreading ourselves allover the world as we been doing for almost 60 yrs now?

other countries, protect their interests and achieve their objectives and actually progress as much if not more than us without spreading troops and armies allover the world. Why can't we do the same?

How much china progressed? how much india? let alone, Germany, France and Britain. What exactly are we achieving by all that spreading?

Of Course we are not an Empire, and i dont think we are an empire-building type of people, so what is that all about? why do we jump from one confrontation to another? and what did we achieve for that?

The issue was not just Israel. Even if it was. I answered that by saying: We can still support Israel without creating new enemies.

I am curious why you believe that it is possible to do this but you avoided saying how to do it? How exactly do you avoid making new enemies if you make friends with a group of people who have their own enemies? Iran has declared that they want nothing less than the complete annihilation of Israel, explain to me how the US can support Israel without making Iran our enemy? If you can answer this question I will change my stance and agree with you, Col gene and Sean all the way. keep in mind that I am looking for a real answer and not an opinion.

Of Course we are not an Empire, and i dont think we are an empire-building type of people, so what is that all about?

Are you serious? Honestly, you don't seem to have the slightest grasp of history at all.

You main point of the article was this:

The more surprising question is when the people are clearly against a certain policy why those governments just keep pursuing the same misguided objective?

It's simple. The American people vote and chose leaders that can do what they can't do so they can sit home and watch TV during their free time. It can't get more realistic than this. I'm sure you will see this as a ridiculous response, but the truth isn't always pretty.

Once upon a time 2 buildings were hit by 2 airplanes, many people died, the people of that nation wanted retribution. At this point the death of innocent people in Afghanistan was not important because the death of our innocent people in the 4 planes and 3 buildings was being avenged. Now all of a sudden these same people are concerned about harming innocent people in another country where a threat was possible as well. Seems to me like the American people don't really know what they want, therefor they vote for leaders who can decide for them, even if it's not always what they really want. It is a Gov't created by our own laziness, ignorance and careless nature. This sounds like the people who complain about how terrible Walmart is but don't like paying too much for things. A necessary evil?

I am looking for a real answer and not an opinion

I didnt go into the details of how to support israel and not create enemies because it wasnt the main point. But i really have some ideas and i will try to post them shortly.

However, to give you and idea about the possibilities, think of The Camp David Accord. the Israeli/Palestenian problem is more complicated of course. but not impossible to deal with. The US could be a Fair partner not a one-sided one.

you don't seem to have the slightest grasp of history at all.

Mason, thanks for all your input. enlighten me please. if you have more than just insults.

It is a Gov't created by our own laziness, ignorance and careless nature.

If you saying we get what we deserve, i agree completely

you don't seem to have the slightest grasp of history at all.

history is subjective. that gets proven here every day.

his perspective is just different.

I am looking for a real answer and not an opinion I didnt go into the details of how to support israel and not create enemies because it wasnt the main point. But i really have some ideas and i will try to post them shortly. However, to give you and idea about the possibilities, think of The Camp David Accord. the Israeli/Palestenian problem is more complicated of course. but not impossible to deal with. The US could be a Fair partner not a one-sided one.

What more do they need/want? They have done everything but bend Israel over the proverbial barrel. The "only" thing that the Palestenian government wants is for Israel to just disappear/die.

You insist on 'real' answers from others

yet over and over again you tell us how this article is YOUR opinion

What can i say now !!!!

Please check and see who Posted that. That is ok. Honest mistake. I promised the author of that post (Charles C.) that i will do that in time , soon i hope.

Now to your other points: I never said that my opinion is not subject to fact checking. and i will be the first to admit if iam wrong. All i said is that asking for a proof is not an answer to any arguement.

and your answer to the reference i made to a poll on the news is exactly what i am talking about. The poll that i mentioned was allover all the papers and the news next day. it wasn't "some Tv show". It was as authoritative as any you mentioned in your post.

Doesn't that explain to you my point? i didnt refer to your references as "some think tank", i took your word for it. and i answered it by referreing you to another poll as credible as the one you mentioned. did you consider it the way i considerd yours? obviously not. I said that is what is going to happen from the first post. exchanging proofs doesnt help the arguement.

that doesnt mean you dont check the facts. If you check what i said and you found a contradictory fact, i will consider what you say not discount it as you did even though it was allover the news and was discussed all week long since it was just before the State of the Union Address. and it wasnt just the one i referred to, there were several polls all in the same range. so why did you easily discount it?

it comes down to this: the polls you mention are "real poll numbers" and the one I mention are "some Tv show polls". The facts I mention are not relly facts, the ones you mention are the REAL ones.

i guess you are "Truth Endowed" and me? neaaaah, "just TV show blah blah blah".

well, the REAL facts always have a way of proving themselves beyond anyone's doubt. Just look back and look around you and you will see them. no polls, yours or mine. That of course assuming you are living in the REAL world not in the Virtual one.