Let's Think Together
Who Needs That !!!!!
Published on June 3, 2007 By ThinkAloud In US Domestic
All of a sudden, Bush supporters woke up and discovered that he is an idiot who is leading the country down a disastrous path. And what woke them up? the Immigration Bill !!!!!

It is as if during the past 6 years, nothing.... absolutely nothing that this fool did matters to his supporters.... except the Immigration Bill. And what is so disastrous about this Bill? Let me count the ways according to those former supporters of GWB:

1- It gives temporary Visas and work permits to people currently working in this country most of whom are low-skilled laborers.
2- Those low-skilled people usually resist assimilation in "America"
3- Those people usually hate this country and think the South really belongs to their country ... i.e. Mexico
4- Those people don’t pay much in taxes but enjoy the benefits of our safety net.

I am trying to understand the logic behind this sudden conversion of former GWB supporters.

First let me say this up front, entering this country illegally is a crime and should not be permitted.

Few other facts of life and of natural laws should be stated here:

a- Borders are not doors that can be closed shut. Every border in the world is being penetrated, illegally, on a regular basis and all that any country can do is to keep that to a minimum. If borders could be closed shut, we wouldn’t have drugs and arms smuggled allover the world all the time. Would we?
b- If there is a need for anything and there is a supply for it somewhere, the supply will find a way to where it is needed regardless of anyone's objection, control, desire, policy or whatever.
c-If there is an easy legal way to obtain anything, people usually get it that way. They don’t resort to illegal ways for the fun of it. Because it is not fun ... it is dangerous and many times it is fatal.
d- All societies need every level of labor skill from bed-pan cleaners to particle physics’ scientists. Much more of the former than of the latter.

There are more facts involved but the above are sufficient to make few points.

The fact that there are from 12 to 20 million illegal workers (including their families) here in the US proves that there are jobs available for these people, otherwise they would have returned back long time ago. why would they stay here? To be arrested?
And if this is the case, why are we opposed to allow needed labor to enter and work legally?

Are we supposed to believe that we don’t need low-skilled labor in this country and by allowing them we will lower the standards of our society?

who will pick up the vegetables and fruits that we eat? a high-tech geek?

if we have enough citizens who can do this low-skilled work, how come the farmers in the west and the south west have a labor shortage now after we made it a little more difficult to penetrate the borders? What would happen if we really somehow managed to make it very difficult which is not practical?

Another point that is being raised in opposition to this Bill is that it makes it easy for these people to get Visa while other high-skilled people are having difficult time and they are made to spend much more to get a Visa.

This of course is a very logical complaint and whoever obstructing the Visas for anyone who has a legitimate purpose of being here needs to be removed from office. but the Bill has nothing to do with that. unless of course you take the attitude that "if i don’t get it, they don’t get it either".

Bureaucratic red tape should not stand in the way when there is a legitimate need to be fulfilled. But this has nothing to do with the Immigration Bill. I am sure the people involved, if the Bill passes, will face the same red tape. It is an equal opportunity obstructer.

Other points raised against this Bill like assimilation and attitudes will be much alleviated if these people feel welcomed and their services are appreciated not made to feel as if they are sub-humans.

As for the low taxes they pay .... there is an easy solution. Pay them more......

Of all people, conservatives should know that there is no free lunch. If we need the services we have to pay for it one way or another. Either allow low-skilled labor to come legally and work in our farms, Or shut-down our farms (like Reagan did with our Factories) and import the farm-products we need, Or Automate the operation to make it easier for Americans to work in this area and pay for the cost to do that.

If we fail to do any of the above, they will come illegally whether we like it or not and it is not stoppable. Remember... the Border is not a door that can be closed shut.

Comments (Page 2)
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on Jun 06, 2007
Be careful LW, the way things are going around here, agenda could be just another one of those "depends on your point of view what it means" kinda word.
on Jun 06, 2007
Kinda like, "That would depend on what your definition of 'is' is."


    
on Jun 07, 2007
Why is it that every time I point out TA's foolishness, TA takes a vacation?


Maybe she get's foolishness skymiles.
on Jun 08, 2007
same pay for the same job regardless of who is applying is communist? isnt that what the law says now?


that is what i said. does this contradict what you said? .... your answer was:

MANY people work the same job for varying amounts of pay. Reasons could include more experience, more seniority, better references, luck, and/or sharper negotiating skills.


really amazing. the qualification is a given, did i have to say that so you dont misunderstand?

what i said means same pay "if qualifications" are the same. sorry i didnt know that was not a given. and the laws forbid discrimination based on sex or race or ... or... etc. you didnt think i meant that too?

comon guys, you just nit picking here, arn't you? I think your left/right tunnel vision is clouding everything you see or read. that is a shame. I have no doubt that you understood what i meant, why you write as if you didnt ... i will never know or understand.

I will allow you to explain how you are not either hypocritical or shallow in accusing Bush supporters for not hating the man and all his policies because they do not agree with his immigration policy.


first i didnt accuse them of hating him, and honestly i dont hate him either. and again you completely missed my point. i clarified it for you before and it is there if you really want to know. no sense of repaeating it.

i think it is very obvious that you guys want things to stay the way they are. i just saw a commercial from the business groups in the west and south-west saying this " work permits is the way to go to fulfill labor shortages". this is business owners asking for what i proposed and this is not good for you guys? ... even describing it as "communism"?

Instead of jumping up and down, why not propose a soultion? is that going by what the polls say? or is it called problem solving? i guess that is not what you really looking for. it is just left/right rhetoric that you are interested in?

the illegal aliens were allowed into the country becouse farmers couldn't pay higher wages. now they can


Agreed. but when i said that every one jumps "communism", forced pay, price controls.... you see what i mean.

not paying illegals the same as legal workers is the problem. how do we solve that? any big brains who think they know how the world works have a solution? speak up ..... let's hear what you have all knowing people.

just in case your brains is not keeping track, saying tighten border security WILL NOT WORK. why? because the people who need labor will get them in one way or another. so use big brain power and tell us what is the solution?????

Do you even know the definition of agenda?


of course not. how would i know? thanks for the lesson.

come up with a list of stuff to do and then do it.


great, finally you found it . ok then. apply it. I am waiting.

Why is it that every time I point out TA's foolishness, TA takes a vacation?


not intentional LW, honest. but i have to work too. and thanks for the compliment. now show me your wisdom. some fools are willing to learn, .. you know.

Maybe she get's foolishness skymiles.


"SHE" ????? i am too ugly to confuse me with a woman you dumb-witted Charles
on Jun 09, 2007

What made me turn against Bush permanently was when he nominated Hariet Meyers for the Supreme Court.

on Jun 09, 2007
To those who oppose the bill, the problem still exists. To simply oppose it saying that it legalizes illegal immigration is simply isn't looking at the bill. To get to the point of getting a valid green card the process takes years, involves a heavy fine and attempts to weed out the criminal element. Do those idiots really believe we can just deport 12 million people?
The other end of the coin is the Wall Street Journal who cite the economic benefits of immigration. Blindness in the form of science. They recently tried to pass this by their readers but conveniently forgot to point out they were considering all immigrants, not just illegals. Of course the journal loves illegals, because their business buddies can pay minimum wages to desperate people who don't care.
Illegals only take jobs nobody else wants. Ha! You tried to get a job in construction lately? I'm sure that before the illegals started crossing the border there was nobody that wanted to do lawn maintainance. Its all an excuse to pay illegals at criminally low wages.
Those who knowingly hire illegals should be heavily fined, as they are the enablers for illegal immigration. Since its not realistic to deport 12 million people a method must be found to account for those already here, and restrict further people from coming in illegally. I think the bill saw to those issues. To be against it because it tries to be pragmatic is idiocy.
on Jun 09, 2007
the original reason for the illegal alien status was to get cheap labor for farmers along the Mexican border

and now we need more workers than we have
on Jun 09, 2007
Its all an excuse to pay illegals at criminally low wages.


That is exactly my point. and to tell you the truth, from what i saw in that commercial, those business people (at least the hones ones ... and there are many of them )are trying to make it legal. But as you can read here, it is called communism by those who want to keep them illegal so they can use them while they are under the gun of illegality.

Some people are just too pig-ignorant to argue with.


That is a great escape hatch .... dont hold your wisdom from those poor pig-ignorant people. ..... they will listen and may be someday become less ignorant.

now we need more workers than we have


Let's assume that we have the workers but are not being hired because of the low wages that illegal workers accept. isnt legalizing those workers would at least solve this part of the problem? but for some people ..... noooooo. keep them illegal.

Really Really amazing. but like i said before governing is something other than slogans and Communist/Capitalist rhetoric. Those who still love that rhetoric dont realize that the debate on that is over .... hey guys ....... Capitalism WON. Now let it work, and stop the empty talk.
on Jun 09, 2007
What made me turn against Bush permanently was when he nominated Hariet Meyers for the Supreme Court.


That was really idiotic decision on his part. I wish it was the only one or even the first.

As a business man you should, and i am sure you do, understand that upending the effeciency and competency of the Federal Government (or whatever precious little it had of both) is really a disaster that we will be suffering from for a looong time. He did that by appointing his cronies in and at the top of different agencies and fired (or forced to resign) everyone who even slightly disagreed with his policies. Whitman, Powel, O'Neal and many Military and CIA professionals come to mind. for God's sake even look at what happened at the World Bank

So he really ruined the Fed Gov not only the GOP.
on Jun 10, 2007
Let's assume that we have the workers but are not being hired because of the low wages that illegal workers accept. isn't legalizing those workers would at least solve this part of the problem?


only problem is unemployment is below 5% which means that everyone who wants to be working is of those who aren't some are looking for higher paying jobs.

when unemployment drops below 3% that means everyone who wants to work is period. the ones not working are on vacation. last i heard which has been awhile we were down around 3%

so no illegals are not taking jobs that Americans want
on Jun 10, 2007
no illegals are not taking jobs that Americans want


that is why farmers, service and construction companies have labor shortage now and they are complaining but some people arn't interested and dont care. Keeping those workers illegal is the main goal of hard-core conservatives even if it hurts the people who they pretend to represent i.e Business. I really dont understand their objections at all and they are not offering any solutions. they are just silent. and that is really telling. I think there is a sinister motive behind that whole storm they made over this Bill. They want to keep things the way they are. Now you can figure out why they want that. OLd habits die hard ....it is a shame
on Jun 11, 2007
that is why farmers, service and construction companies have labor shortage now and they are complaining but some people arn't interested and dont care. Keeping those workers illegal is the main goal of hard-core conservatives even if it hurts the people who they pretend to represent i.e Business. I really dont understand their objections at all and they are not offering any solutions. they are just silent. and that is really telling. I think there is a sinister motive behind that whole storm they made over this Bill. They want to keep things the way they are. Now you can figure out why they want that. OLd habits die hard ....it is a shame


what does any of this have to do with what i said
on Jun 11, 2007
that is why farmers, service and construction companies have labor shortage now and they are complaining but some people arn't interested and dont care. Keeping those workers illegal is the main goal of hard-core conservatives even if it hurts the people who they pretend to represent i.e Business. I really dont understand their objections at all and they are not offering any solutions. they are just silent. and that is really telling. I think there is a sinister motive behind that whole storm they made over this Bill. They want to keep things the way they are. Now you can figure out why they want that. OLd habits die hard ....it is a shame


what does any of this have to do with what i said


besides there are already 2 to 15 laws on the books that aren't being enforced do you really think one more law will change things
on Jun 11, 2007

first i didnt accuse them of hating him, and honestly i dont hate him either. and again you completely missed my point. i clarified it for you before and it is there if you really want to know. no sense of repaeating it.

No, you did not.  Specifically you stated:

All of a sudden, Bush supporters woke up and discovered that he is an idiot who is leading the country down a disastrous path. And what woke them up? the Immigration Bill !!!!!

Just because many of us disagree with his immigration, does not mean we "woke up" and see he was an idiot all along, since we have supported his policies (not all, but most) in the past. 

What you did say:

done that for a loong time already. i never support anyone blindly and regardless of the consequences of his/her policies. I voted for clinton twice but opposed him on many issues.
 

the problem i have with the people who are up in arms against him because of this Bill is the fact that this is the least of his foolish policies. i listed few of the major disasters that he started, can you tell me how can anyone support that? but you guys did.

Which may indicate you think that clinton was an idiot after you found a policy you did not agree with, yet you have not stated you have found him to be an idiot.  So the question remains unanswered.  Are we to all of a sudden agree with you on everything Bush because we do not agree with him on immigration?  ANd if so (which again is implied by you but never stated), do you find Clinton an idiot since you found a policy you do not agree with?  Or are you just telling us we should do as you say, not as you do?

on Jun 11, 2007
"SHE" ????? i am too ugly to confuse me with a woman you dumb-witted Charles


Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me. Nice to see that all I have to do is make a mistake and I'm automatically dumb-witted.
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