Let's Think Together
Who Needs That !!!!!
Published on June 3, 2007 By ThinkAloud In US Domestic
All of a sudden, Bush supporters woke up and discovered that he is an idiot who is leading the country down a disastrous path. And what woke them up? the Immigration Bill !!!!!

It is as if during the past 6 years, nothing.... absolutely nothing that this fool did matters to his supporters.... except the Immigration Bill. And what is so disastrous about this Bill? Let me count the ways according to those former supporters of GWB:

1- It gives temporary Visas and work permits to people currently working in this country most of whom are low-skilled laborers.
2- Those low-skilled people usually resist assimilation in "America"
3- Those people usually hate this country and think the South really belongs to their country ... i.e. Mexico
4- Those people don’t pay much in taxes but enjoy the benefits of our safety net.

I am trying to understand the logic behind this sudden conversion of former GWB supporters.

First let me say this up front, entering this country illegally is a crime and should not be permitted.

Few other facts of life and of natural laws should be stated here:

a- Borders are not doors that can be closed shut. Every border in the world is being penetrated, illegally, on a regular basis and all that any country can do is to keep that to a minimum. If borders could be closed shut, we wouldn’t have drugs and arms smuggled allover the world all the time. Would we?
b- If there is a need for anything and there is a supply for it somewhere, the supply will find a way to where it is needed regardless of anyone's objection, control, desire, policy or whatever.
c-If there is an easy legal way to obtain anything, people usually get it that way. They don’t resort to illegal ways for the fun of it. Because it is not fun ... it is dangerous and many times it is fatal.
d- All societies need every level of labor skill from bed-pan cleaners to particle physics’ scientists. Much more of the former than of the latter.

There are more facts involved but the above are sufficient to make few points.

The fact that there are from 12 to 20 million illegal workers (including their families) here in the US proves that there are jobs available for these people, otherwise they would have returned back long time ago. why would they stay here? To be arrested?
And if this is the case, why are we opposed to allow needed labor to enter and work legally?

Are we supposed to believe that we don’t need low-skilled labor in this country and by allowing them we will lower the standards of our society?

who will pick up the vegetables and fruits that we eat? a high-tech geek?

if we have enough citizens who can do this low-skilled work, how come the farmers in the west and the south west have a labor shortage now after we made it a little more difficult to penetrate the borders? What would happen if we really somehow managed to make it very difficult which is not practical?

Another point that is being raised in opposition to this Bill is that it makes it easy for these people to get Visa while other high-skilled people are having difficult time and they are made to spend much more to get a Visa.

This of course is a very logical complaint and whoever obstructing the Visas for anyone who has a legitimate purpose of being here needs to be removed from office. but the Bill has nothing to do with that. unless of course you take the attitude that "if i don’t get it, they don’t get it either".

Bureaucratic red tape should not stand in the way when there is a legitimate need to be fulfilled. But this has nothing to do with the Immigration Bill. I am sure the people involved, if the Bill passes, will face the same red tape. It is an equal opportunity obstructer.

Other points raised against this Bill like assimilation and attitudes will be much alleviated if these people feel welcomed and their services are appreciated not made to feel as if they are sub-humans.

As for the low taxes they pay .... there is an easy solution. Pay them more......

Of all people, conservatives should know that there is no free lunch. If we need the services we have to pay for it one way or another. Either allow low-skilled labor to come legally and work in our farms, Or shut-down our farms (like Reagan did with our Factories) and import the farm-products we need, Or Automate the operation to make it easier for Americans to work in this area and pay for the cost to do that.

If we fail to do any of the above, they will come illegally whether we like it or not and it is not stoppable. Remember... the Border is not a door that can be closed shut.

Comments (Page 3)
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on Jun 11, 2007
Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me. Nice to see that all I have to do is make a mistake and I'm automatically dumb-witted.


just a joke Charles, i just felt it was funny you thought i was a She. and i think it is understandable mistake. sorry if you got upset. i meant it in a good way.
on Jun 11, 2007
Which may indicate you think that clinton was an idiot after you found a policy you did not agree with, yet you have not stated you have found him to be an idiot.


Comon Doc. you missing the point again. it is not that they disagreed with him, it is the way they did and at the same time they didnt even lift a finger about his other earlier more disasterous mistakes even though many of them didnt agree with him on those issues . but they kept silent, because he is the president ... some actually said that. I wonder if that is because he is a Republican or would they also do that with a Democrat ...

and yes i considered some of Clinton's decisions idiotic and i said that too. but i didnt wait 6 years to do that. from day one whenever he did something idiotic, i said that at the time.

please lets not argue about a side issue (clinton is no more ...... at least for now ). the main point was that we have to do something to fix the immigration mess, just opposing it and the way it happened is not really solving anything.

on Jun 11, 2007
besides there are already 2 to 15 laws on the books that aren't being enforced do you really think one more law will change things


you are right. and all laws must be enforced, the problem is current laws have no way of getting needed labor in the country in a simple easy way. and if this bill needs revisions then lets do it not just oppose the whole idea and get hung on the Amnesty slogan. just keep in mind that business needs labor not necessarily immigrants and current laws dont make it easy to get just workers.
on Jun 12, 2007

just a joke Charles, i just felt it was funny you thought i was a She. and i think it is understandable mistake. sorry if you got upset. i meant it in a good way.


Me? Upset? Nah, it takes a lot to get me mad. Don't worry.
on Jun 12, 2007

Comon Doc. you missing the point again. it is not that they disagreed with him, it is the way they did and at the same time they didnt even lift a finger about his other earlier more disasterous mistakes even though many of them didnt agree with him on those issues . but they kept silent, because he is the president ... some actually said that. I wonder if that is because he is a Republican or would they also do that with a Democrat ...

You must not have read much then in the past 6 years.  For indeed we did decry the policies we did not like (NCLB, Drug Prescriptions, etc.).  However, as I have stated, other than the most shallow of people, supporters did not decide that all he did was stupid because of the policiy(ies) we did not agree with.  Nor do we now think that all his policies were or are bad.

Here we have a man that basically agreed with conservatives (for sake of argument) about 50% of the time, and went his own way the other 50% of the time.  In 2000, when he said (during campaigning) he was going to push through NCLB and Drugs, we may have agreed with him 60-70% of the time, but the agreement with the opposition was even less (I agreed with SS, Taxes, abortion, what he said on Spending, etc.).  In politics you do not get a man that you that goes along with you 100% of the time, unless you are a man of convictions and running yourself.

Now you are telling us because, for a change, the conservative base is very energized and ready to fight him, that we should call him an idiot and decry all his previous policies.  Something you have yet to tell us you did with Clinton.

Bush supporters did  not wake up.  For the most part, we have been awake and paying attention.  Some are calling him an idiot, and some are not (I am not).  Nor am I going to even though I am going to fight this bill with every shout at my reps I can.  And I will not say that his SS plan (still un acted upon by democrats who "say" there is no problem like the French did in May of 1940), his tax cut, his war on terror, or his other initiatives that I agree with but have been bottled up by congress are idiotic or stupid.  I will, and have said that his Education plan (I spent 12 years in Education at the state and local level - so I have a great deal of background on that subject), his Sr. drug plan, and the immigration plan is stupid and idiotic.  However the first 2 were done 6 years ago. So while you were jumping up and down and telling the world how much you hate him, we were trying to get those bills killed, but you did not hear us for your own noise level.

When you rank Clinton as the worst president of the 20th century, I will then agree that we should now be waking up and saying that Bush is stupid and an idiot.  Until then, do not tell me to do what you do not do.

on Jun 12, 2007

Me? Upset? Nah, it takes a lot to get me mad. Don't worry.

Putting novocaine in his KY jelly will do it tho.

on Jun 12, 2007
Another point that is being raised in opposition to this Bill is that it makes it easy for these people to get Visa while other high-skilled people are having difficult time and they are made to spend much more to get a Visa.

This of course is a very logical complaint and whoever obstructing the Visas for anyone who has a legitimate purpose of being here needs to be removed from office. but the Bill has nothing to do with that. unless of course you take the attitude that "if i don’t get it, they don’t get it either".


This is clearly a quote coming from somone who has very little knowledge about the challenges of 'legally immigrating' through the current process.

It isn't an issue of 'if i don't get it, they don't get it either.' It is a matter of: Hey I'm obeying the laws here and this jerk who cares less about the US laws and sovereignty gets to cut in line (else they would be in line too doing it the legal way)????

on Jun 12, 2007
Putting novocaine in his KY jelly will do it tho


   Your killing me Doc.
on Jun 12, 2007
Me? Upset? Nah, it takes a lot to get me mad. Don't worry.


Great, that is my kind of thinking. Thanks.

we were trying to get those bills killed, but you did not hear us for your own noise level.


Not the majority of conservatives Doc. I know some did just what you said and i admired them for that. The fact is that the majority let him take a long unopposed ride over many crucial decisions. i did not expect that from them. but i honestly dont hate him. may be it is hard for you to believe that but i really think he was put in a position over his head. and the people who put him there should have checked him earlier. That is in short all of my point.

This is clearly a quote coming from somone who has very little knowledge about the challenges of 'legally immigrating' through the current process.


I agree and I can only imagine the frustration and the efforts/expenses involved. That is why i said these workers should get work permits not immigration visas. If they want that they should apply and stand in line like everyone else not jump ahead of the people who applied years ago and still waiting. This should be fixed.
on Jun 12, 2007
That is why i said these workers should get work permits not immigration visas.


TA please tell me how you differentiate work permits and immigration visas?

If they want that they should apply and stand in line like everyone else not jump ahead of the people who applied years ago and still waiting. This should be fixed.


TA, this is WHY we are so upset. I know several people that are going through this process (including Joeusers) that have been standing in line. This immigration bill would have been the biggest slap in our face for obeying the laws of this gov't.

TIP: Go to uscis.gov and just look at the forms you have to fill out. I will assure you though that if you look at these forms you will still have little comprehension of the process.
on Jun 13, 2007
TA please tell me how you differentiate work permits and immigration visas?


A big difference my friend. Work permits are just that. The gov issues them with a limited-time visa to work at a specific job and location. when they lose that job or the time expires they leave unless they can get the employer to endorse them and give them another job. I really dont know the other details of it but it is not a permanent residence Visa. I believe it is like visas given to other nationals when they come here on assignments. it is much easier to get if you have a job sponsor. and it has nothing to do about citizenship or permanenet residence. and people from other parts of the world get that all the time with no objection.

Immigration Visa is a permit to stay in the country as a permanent resident with no guarantee of a job or a need for a sponsor. You are treated almost like a citizen. that is why it takes long time and more expensive. employers do most of the work for work-permits and they need that not immigrants.

that is what the opposition of this Bill should be saying not just use amnesty as a slogan to obstruct solution to this problem. Just opposing it without offering reasonable fixes is just OBSTRUCTION not governing.
on Jun 13, 2007
I will assure you though that if you look at these forms you will still have little comprehension of the process.


Believe me, i know full well the stupidity and the hassel , not just in this process but for anything that has Gov involved in it. I understand completely the agony and the frustartions but just obstructing the Bill is the wrong way to go about it. offer solutions not slogans. That is what i am saying all along. offer real problem-solving changes not changes to just obstruct the bill.
on Jun 15, 2007
That is what i am saying all along. offer real problem-solving changes not changes to just obstruct the bill.


First of all there are sufficient laws on the books. They need to be enforced. George H. Bush didnt enforce the borders, Clinton didn't enforce the borders, and GWB hasn't enforced the borders. I will OBSTRUCT any bill of this type because we ALREADY HAVE the laws we need to enforce our borders and to deal with this. Ike and Reagan dealt with these issues while in office. The 1986 Amnesty bill did horrors. Yes the system is broke but throwing it away because it is broke is NOT the answer and allowing 12million + illegals to safely reside in our borders is insane!

REAL PROBLEM SOLVING CHANGES:
Enforce the borders like never before.
Repeal the regulations against Immigration so that they can effectively do their duty.
Take a multi-staged approach to deporting them but first ENFORCE the BORDERS.
Fingerprint the illegal deportees. Two strikes you're out!
Enforce the border.
on Jun 15, 2007
I will OBSTRUCT any bill of this type because we ALREADY HAVE the laws we need to enforce our borders and to deal with this.


Ditto, but also because I am a firm believer in the dictum that a bad law is worse than no law at all.
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