SanChonino,

Not that God changes, but if He has revealed all that He wants to to man, then what use is there for prophecy? Though I'm not sure it's finished. I'm just saying, God doesn't have to change to stop telling us things.

But you have to admit it would be a change in his MO. Why would he talk to prophets, "face to face", but then once we had a book just stop talking to people? Just because of a book, whose creation is spurious at best? Makes no sense to me.

There are two kinds of prophets. One is the foretelling of what's going to happen like many if not all the OT Prophets. They would speak about what was going to come to pass.

Then there is the gift of prophecy which is being forthright in speaking out God's words. Paul would be a good example here. Peter also. To speak up in the face of adversity confidently is a gift from God.



I don't see this biblically. But you can give me some examples if you'd like. I'd like to know what you're referring to. Why would God employ the gift if nobody notices? Remember gifts are for the glory of God, not man. God's word does not go out void.



He told us why in Hebrews 1:1

"God who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets. Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son whom he has appointed heir of all things by whom also he made the worlds."

The OT was like a shadow. Christ was the body to that shadow. Once he came there was nothing else needed to tell. Christ was the fulfillment of the OT prophecy.

"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets he (Christ) expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." Luke 24:27

"Then there is the gift of prophecy which is being forthright in speaking out God's words. Paul would be a good example here. Peter also. To speak up in the face of adversity confidently is a gift from God."

"One is the foretelling of what's going to happen like many if not all the OT Prophets. They would speak about what was going to come to pass."

That's because Jesus hadn't happened yet, now he has there's no need to tell the future... now we tell the past, and are probably listened to about as much as the prophets were.

As for speaking in different languages, I will look that up, but I'm pretty sure it was in Acts that lots of people believed and started speaking a language they didn't even know, which left half the people saying they were drunk and half believing.

People noticed that time. But regardless, I think the world at large would refuse to believe it and it would be impossible to recreate, so it isn't talked about beyond those who it happened to/around. But in sharing the message of Christ, I think language barriers often get removed when ordinarily someone would have no idea what you were saying.

KFC,

The speaking in different tongues, aside from the tower of Babel (though for a different reason, I believe), is found at Pentecost. When the tongues of fire with the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles. Acts 2:1-11

However this wasn't the type of mystical tongues thought of by most people. These were foreign languages. It was said that each man around them, though diverse and from many different lands, understood the Apostles in his own language.

In fact, I'm hard bent to remember a single time in which, other than possession (if even then), that a non-human language has been used.

ha! You've got that right!



oh it is. I was asking for you to show me where it happens all the time in a biblical sort of way? What we are seeing today here in our own country is NOT the same speaking in tongues as was done biblically speaking. First of all it HAS to be a language. Secondly it HAS to be for someone speaking in the congregation who has never heard the gospel in his/her own language. So when I hear all these tongues speaking people, I have to ask...what language are you speaking and for whom? I've been in a church where they are all speaking "gibberish" all at once. That is NOT biblical.

Tongues is NOT for our own edification. All the gifts were and are supposed to be for others...not ourselves.



Yes, and these people went to their own countries with the gospel understanding it in their own language.



Exactly. It's not to be gibberish, but a language and Paul made this very clear in 1 Cor 12. Notice when you read that..... when it's gibberish Paul says "unknown tongue" and when it's legit he says "tongues." Paul downplays the whole tongue issue to the Corinthians who were abusing it just like they are today.

"Tongues is NOT for our own edification. All the gifts were and are supposed to be for others...not ourselves."

You're absolutely right!

I guess since it's found in Acts they think it's all an act? I guess as a child in a church with that going on you feel a pressure to speak in tongues, because if you can't speak in tongues, you're not really saved. But really, you're just not a show-off.

So you have heresay incorrectly quoted with an interpretation. So you are actually saying that your statement was false

A direct quote from an interview is heresay? and if my interpretetion is wrong, then what is YOUR interpretion of what he said? He didnt deny this when the book came out.

It is amazing how you blind Bush supporters defend him even in the most foolish things he does or says. Good for you. just keep defending and spinning his foolishness. it seems that it is what you have left to do.

I do believe though that God is talking to these people. I just don't think they are listening

He did. through what he revealed to his real messengers and prophets. but speaking personally to everybody and his/her brother nowadays? it is an obvious arrogance.

If your only tool to working it out is a Bible, or even if you're lucky enough to have a good minister with some credentials, there is still so much to muddle through.

I dont think God's words are confusing . It is the professionals of faith who confuse people. they spin his words to suit their agendas.

In most all of the cases, it seems, unless the person was posessed, the case involved people who had been deeply spiritual and strong in faith for many years before even getting a little bit of that good stuff.

That is what i think. Saying that God speaks personally to people is kind of nuts inmo. Real messengers and prophets behaved and acted in a very unique way. These claims nowadays are phony and a sign of empty headedness.

I believe that God speaks thru His Word, for those willing to discern Him. I don't claim to have personal revelations, only pieces of a puzzle that lead me in His ways. Something in the Sciptures His Word will strike me; that is God. When the Scriptures reveal how I am not living in accordance with His Will, then that is God. But God has yet to make me a prophet or to command me to write a revelation. Until then I will search for Him where He may be found and confrom my will to His.

that is all I am saying in short. His words are there for all to read and understand if anyone is interested. but for someone now to claim he/she had a personal talking with God is just false claim.

Shouldn't God be allowed to influence things in His own creation? Well, sure. But along with that goes the responsibility of the influence. That responsibility, by His own action, is now HIS responsibility. Our free will is gone.

If we, as mankind, are to be judged by our actions (which is the standard ideology) then those actions must not be influenced in any way by Him.

Before applying your "Bible of logic and reason" you need to fully understand His method or MO if you will. He influences things in away to make it possible for us to use our own free will. He also gave us the guidelines to use that same free will. In short anything honestly and truly beyond any human's control ( and He knows what is and what is not any human's abilitiies) that human is not responsible for it. That is His MO. so dont take His infleuence as acting against your free will, in fact it is empowering and guiding it .

If God is perfect, then everything He creates must also be no matter how awful it may seem to us

Not necessarily true. Check your bible of logic and reason. He is the perfect Creator. that is true, not that He creates everything to be perfect. He could have, but He did not say that is what He did. What He said regarding this point is : He is the best Creator. Everything He created suits exactly the purpose for which it was created. Look at it as "quality". it does not mean the best possible thing. it only means the "best possible thing for THIS PURPOSE"

My final tally is that we're all perfect just how we are

Creation-wise yes we are, but behavior-wise it depends what we each do.

As for God talking to people, as people received the Holy Spirit, they often began speaking in tongues.

And you call that God speaking to them? in languages they dont understand? that is God? and how they know it was God and not just hallucination?

It is really insane to say God speaks nowadays to anyone personally. people get inspirations and intuitions of course and these are certainly the works of God but to claim that they are the result of a direct personal speaking session with Him is outrageous.

Tongues are still around today. Being able to speak different languages without actually knowing them happens all the time, just nobody notices

if nobody notices how do you know it exists? and why not say that the person doing that have somekind of mental illness?

Taking His name in vain like that and claiming things of that nature is pure nonsense.

Well I must confess that I was not a Believer , then He came to me in a dream last night and said I must turn up and prevent the slanderous utterances of those claiming to speak for him.

True? Of Course Not. But neither can you prove it wasn’t true.

This is the whole point about the whole thing people know as Religion. It relies, very conveniently, on central issues that cannot be disproved in absolute terms - but crucially it cannot be proved either. It is usually followed up by ever increasing amounts of smoke and mirrors connected with implications of lack of intellect in the heathen many who cannot put their Faith in conceptual ideas, who continually show their ignorance for the deeper reaches of human existence. So it goes on into an ever increasing spiral of self centered claptrap, safe in the knowledge that no one can ever prove or disprove the ever increasing self centered theoretical drivel.

That’s the whole basis of the theory of the Celestial Teapot, of which I will be a fan until my dying day. To those who dont know it - Google "Celestial Teapot", the logic is bomb proof, and encapsulates perfectly my views.

To cap it all, the Leaders of these so called Religions were responsible for some of the most horrific acts of war, genocide and abhorrent abuse of individual human beings imaginable throughout the Ages. These are the examples of common decency we are supposed to aspire to? Are you insane? No one can hold themselves up to be a paragon of virtue, I’m first in the queue on that one, but if you are to hold up an Institution as the guardian and ultimate arbiter on moral values, you better make damn sure it is in itself sweaky clean, today’s "Faiths" are far far from that aspiration.

One day the grim reaper will come for me, if at that time I discover some kind of after life, that for some reason I am not given entry to for lack of Faith, that would be the ultimate hypocrisy in my view, and I would gladly turn around and join "Him Downstairs". I consider I live a decent life with decent moral values, if this Supreme Entity is so arrogant and vain as to demand personal adoration every few days (whatever), amidst such acts of depravity that are carried out "In His Name" then to hell with it (literally).

So to those who claim this favored existence of conversing with Him, or even the simpler Act of believing in Him, my reaction is simple, if that gives you an inner peace to your dying day, wonderful. Inner peace howsoever reached is a good thing, but please, don’t expect me to actually believe your self induced claptrap.

So to those who claim this favored existence of conversing with Him, or even the simpler Act of believing in Him, my reaction is simple, if that gives you an inner peace to your dying day, wonderful. Inner peace howsoever reached is a good thing, but please, don’t expect me to actually believe your self induced claptrap.

I partially agree. it is sure "claptrap"as you call it for anyone now to claim conversing with Him. As for believing in God's existence or your judgement of those who believe i think you are greatly mistaken.

Using the acts of those "religious Leaders" to reach your conclusion is the best proof of your mistake. Do you judge say General Relativity by the wrong application of it? I dont think you would do that. Same here. dont judge the Creator by the acts of the creature. Let a virus into the best made and best programmed computer and it will malfunction. that is the fault of the designer?
i dont think so. Especiall if the designer of both the soft and hard wares warned you about that virus.

Demanding absolute certainity is not even a criterion for scientific proof anymore. Ask Heisenberg. look objectively, as you seem to be inclined, at the universe and say this is haphazard or by chance. It cant be. too much organized, balanced, and beautiful to be a result of Entropy or Quantum Mechanics which leads to chaos and conflicts. May be we dont have a fool-proof evidence but all the signs point to a Creator. No question about that.