Let's Think Together
One Voter At a Time .... That is How.
Published on November 19, 2007 By ThinkAloud In US Domestic
In a recent article LW, one of JU thoughtful Bloggers, got so frustrated with the state of affairs in our nation, the USA, to the point of calling for a Revolution to change things to the better and get us out of this miserable state in which we find ourselves neck-deep.

I reached that same point of frustration looooong time ago..... About 40 years ago to be exact. I wanted to do the same thing. A Revolution. With that I SHALL change everything. Everything. Here and in the world. Seriously.

Unfortunately, I am an Engineer. And if you don’t already know what that means, I really can’t help you. What is more unfortunate is that I am a Chemical Engineer. And if you are not one, don't tell me you know what that means. You will never know . And I am not kidding ( a prominent professor of Chemical Engineering once said: if you ask any person in the street what does an Engineer Do? you will never get the correct answer. If you ask any Engineer what does a Chemical Engineer Do? you will never get the correct answer .... i discovered that he was absolutely right) . We do things in a way that seems absurd not only to normal people but to other types of engineers as well. Master Plans, designs, details, specifics, logic, laws (natural and legal), client desires, client resources, efficiency, economy, common sense, smoothly working systems, safely-operating systems, elegance, harmony, consistency, ...etc. But who needs that??? That is a headache producing, frustration inducing and annoying way of doing things.

As such, I started working out the Plans, and the details and specifics and logic and legal foundation for this Revolution of mine.

When I got to the "Client Desires" I was shocked. My client in this Revolution is the People. What do the people want? I asked myself. I know what they "Should" want. but that is just me. What do they Really want so I can design this Revolution of mine.

As any good Engineer would do, I started asking people around me, "How do you think a good government should look like and what should it Do. In details. No general glorious slogans please?" And to my utter shock, I found out what I still find everywhere including here on JU. People want everything on the condition that they pay nothing. what is more is this: “Everything” for a group of people is the opposite of the Everything of other group of people and both are different from the Everything of a third group of people and so on and on and on.

In actual engineering jobs, if your client is like that your ONLY position should be this: Tell the client's people to get their act together and first decide what they want and they should call you back when that is achieved. The rule is: don’t you ever start unless The Client knows exactly what they want. Period. No exception. If they need help doing that, provide it if you can but that is another project. Finish that first then start the original one after they agree on what they want

Well, the Clients of that Revolution of mine are the People of the country. And based on what I found I decided I should postpone this Revolution until they get their act together.

In the meantime, I said to myself, let's see what kind of resources my Client (the people) has. I need good honest-to-God incorruptible, selfless, open-minded, tolerant, humble, looking-for-each-other-type people. That is what I need for that Revolution of mine.

A second shock swept through my spine up to my brain. That woke me up and made me smell the coffee. The people, as a single group, don’t know what they want. And assuming that they can get together and figure that out, they don’t have enough people who can give them what they want.

That made me remember the time-honored principle: "The Thousand mile Trip Starts with a Step". That revolution of mine must start by revolutionizing the people themselves .... one by one until we have enough of them. And since they say that in any organization (and any country is just a large organization) almost 20% of the people do 80% of the work I figured that the minimum number of people required for this Revolution of mine is 10% of the American People. The Other 10% will learn on the job…. I said to my self.

With these two discoveries I decided to wait till there is enough Americans who can agree on what the country should be like and at the SAME time have at least most of the above mentioned qualities. When “That” happens I will revisit this idea of a Revolution.

Over the years since then, I discovered another thing: When we get that many Americans that way, the Revolution would already have been happening. No more action would be necessary. The objectives would already have been achieved.

Going back to LW's hope for a revolution to change our government, I can only say our government, and our country, will change when at least 30 million Americans can agree on what is best for the country as a whole. At the same time those same Americans must possess most of the qualities mentioned above.

As it stands now we can’t agree on anything of importance. Even within the limited community of JU, look how uncompromising most of the views here. How each "Opinionator" blindly believes that their opinion and theirs alone are the absolute best. How inconsistent their opinions are depending on the moment and the circumstances. How they disregard every logical argument and reason. How they defend the indefensible. How they disregard the "Other" which is anyone who disagrees with them. How they disregard the consequences of their actions and opinions regardless of who suffers or what is being destroyed.

Until we, individually, change ourselves to match the required qualities nothing will ever change. The revolutionary people will be like the current ones unless they come from a changed people with consistent values and objectives and possess the moral integrity that is required to achieve those objectives.

How do we achieve that change? That needs a separate and hopefully shorter article.

Comments (Page 2)
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on Nov 19, 2007
Thanks Doc for the nice words.

What you see as the perfect way is not what I see


Sorry Doc, i dont see my way as perfect AT ALL. I see it as the best possible that is consistent with the principles that i live by.

The problem with engineers is we have the solutions for perfect worlds (as the physical world is based on it), but not for the vagaries of human nature.


No Doc. Our world is not perfect at all and YOU know it. We make reasonable assumptions based on the facts we have. and design with a margin of error to accomodate our imperfect knowledge of the world we deal with. We dont overload parts of the system because other STRONGER parts do not carry their fair share. We sacrifice some of our Client's desire in order to make HIS sytem safe and easy to operate. We dont sacrifice the weaker parts because they are weak, we protect them because they have a role to play. we also know that the design might not satisfy the Client's desire 100% and the client KNOWS that too. That is what is called "performance acceptable range". we design to get 110% but we get 95% and we dont call that a failure. actually it is excellent. That is our "engineering" world.

If we do the same in our "Human" world, we would be much much better and stronger and function as we wish to.

The best thing about our "Engineering" world is that those parts of the system are selfless. They do their role honestly and willingly. they dont say "those little parts hanging over there are putting load on me .... take them off my shoulders". they dont say that, if they can carry it, they caryy it. no complaint. Good engineers dont put parts that just hang overthere. they have a role. The big load-carrier may not see it but the engineer does.

In our "Human" world, that is what we should try to get people to understand. Be less selfish, less biased, more honest in what we say and do, more consistent and must not judge things ONLY from our prespective. Good Humans, must take other perspectives in consideration before they make their judgement.

There is only one catch in the engineering world. If he doesnt get the RIGHT engineer the client will end up with a mess on their hands. The bigger the project, the bigger the mess.

In the case of a country, if the the people (i.e.client ) dont get the Right Government (i.e. the engineer) they will end up with the biggest mess on their hand. And that is where we are now.

I dont see your perspective as "Ruins" I only see it as not the right one. I dont see mine as perfect, i see it as more suitable. My perspective is wide open to all reasonable changes that make the system better and the Country stronger.

To do that, we must get "our act together" and figure out what Exactly we want our country to be. if we cant agree on that. then no is progress possible. If we do, nothing is impossible.
on Nov 19, 2007
so the question is are we an ancient republic or are we just getting started.


We sure are just getting started. We are very young Nation. May be the youngest on the planet. that is why we really have a long way to go. But we should learn from the really "ancient" nations. Learn how they rose to the pinnacle and why did they slide to ruins. we can avoid lots of missteps if we do that. That is if we really want to learn.
on Nov 19, 2007
remember rome was an empire by now.


we are close to that but not quite there. despite what gene says. and despite what the democrats want.
on Nov 19, 2007
But we should learn from the really "ancient" nations.


i don't think there are any ancient nations around that haven't kept changing one dictator for another. remember a king, queen, or emperor is a dictator.
on Nov 20, 2007
remember rome was an empire by now.we are close to that but not quite there. despite what gene says. and despite what the democrats want.


This is a perfect example of what is happening.

First, it is as if the Democrats do not like the USA to be an Empire while the Republicans do. That is the bias and the one-sided judgement i mean.

Second, the USA is not even close from being an Empire. Unless of course you consider Port Rico and other US possessions to be a significant part of the world.

Empires treat their subjects as citicizens, they move freely to and from all parts of it with no restrictions. They have the same "Emperor" ruling them with local rulers appointed by him with laws that are applicable within the whole Empire. An Empire collects taxes from all its regions and takes care of the regions in return.How are we compared to that?

We are occupiers of many places. Not an Empire.

Here is a simple definition of an Empire:
"An empire is a state that extends dominion over populations distinct culturally and ethnically from the culture/ethnicity at the center of power" (from Wikipedia)

And here is another from the dictionary:
"a large state or a group of states under a single sovereign who is usually an Emperor"

When the Iraqis, The Germans, The Japanese, The Saudis, The Kwaitis, The Italians,... etc can get in and out of the US freely, no passports required (US- EMPIRE ID will do), when their governments are appointed by the US President (Emperror!!!!), when they pay taxes to the US treasury, when the US Military laws apply to armed individual fighting in its name in those regions (Blackwater ....!!!!) .... etc then we can say the US is "close" to being an empire.

would that convince you or anyone who says the same? i doubt it. And that is the problem.

If even a well established definition of a political entity is misrepresented like that, how can we agree on anything else.
on Nov 20, 2007
i refer to the fact that the democrats in the last ten or so have been calling for a prime minister.


a prime minister doesn't answer to the people. he answers to the congress. he would remove all or most of the president's powers. like vetoing bills.


both parties have been calling for a national id card. so that you can be identified when moving from one state to another. (can i see your papers please.)


and we do exercise a few empire powers. we dictate to our trading partners what rules they have to apply when sending products to our country to be sold. and yes i am sure they do the same thing with us.
on Nov 20, 2007
the Founding Fathers did it anyway. Dictatorial Regime? ;~D


Not at all. They had the right people around and that is why they were able to reach something called "The Constitution". Didn't they reach an agreement on that? it allows us to do what we agree on. doesn't it?

The problem is our current leaders, unlike them, can't agree on anything. They had that 20% of reasonable and logical people around them. We dont have that now. Current leaders play to different type of people than the Founding Fathers.
on Nov 20, 2007
I'm just pointing out that, our Founding Fathers were acting against the will of the majority, without asking them what they wanted. They knew what they wanted, and worked towards making it happen... and aren't we glad they didn't stop to get a concensus?
on Nov 20, 2007
i refer to the fact that the democrats in the last ten or so have been calling for a prime minister


Really? when did that happen? and who called for that exactly? and how many Americans have that idea about the Dem's? is that the new talking points?

But before all that: what does this have to do with being an Empire?????????????

both parties have been calling for a national id card. so that you can be identified when moving from one state to another. (can i see your papers please.)


Show me your papers first. And you cant use that ID to go into any of those countries we occupy, so how is that compared to an Empire-ID?

and we do exercise a few empire powers. we dictate to our trading partners what rules they have to apply when sending products to our country to be sold. and yes i am sure they do the same thing with us.


Then we are part of their Empire?

Empires dont dictate, they Govern. i dont know if that makes a difference to you. But there is a huge difference. Physically, psychologically, culturally and legally. Empires are responsible for the well being of their subjects and for what they do to their lands and resources. Is that what we do???? !!!!!!!!!



on Nov 20, 2007
our Founding Fathers were acting against the will of the majority, without asking them what they wanted.


Of course.And that is what i said in the article. you dont need a majority to change, only 20% will do. I even said 10% and the other 10% will learn on the job.

They had that 10-20% with them. the other 80% usually have minimal effect because they are followers regardless of what you are dealing with.
on Nov 20, 2007

The best thing about our "Engineering" world is that those parts of the system are selfless


Actually these things are not "selfless" at all. Selflessness implies a choice in the matter. The devices, laws, and sets in engineering worlds are not selfless, they are in fact Slaves.

My routers don't forward packets because they beleive in the greater good or out of enlightened self interest... they do so becuase I force them to do so. I don't give two small damns what their "thoughts" on the matter might be.

I force the system without regard to how idividual elements of it might feel. This is great in science but utterly useless outside of actual dictatorships politically.

This is the essence of dictatorships and the main reason they fail. "Unhappy" routers pass traffic with exactly the same efficiency as "Happy" routers, but people don't work like that.

Problem is that there are groups of folks out there who are so convinced that other people "should" do thus and so that they are willing to effect massive government enforcement of these "shoulds".

Enforced selflessnes is not selflessness at all but only slave service under the yoke of tyranny.
on Nov 20, 2007
Really? when did that happen? and who called for that exactly? and how many Americans have that idea about the Dem's? is that the new talking points?


i heard this on a news report on fox news. looks like i may have mis heard.
on Nov 20, 2007
Empires are responsible for the well being of their subjects and for what they do to their lands and resources. Is that what we do???? !!!!!!!!!


yes everyone but the rich. with exception of the rich in office
on Nov 20, 2007
Empires are responsible for the well being of their subjects


Only if the ruling elite choose to be responsible. They are perfectly able to choose neglect or abuse as well.
on Nov 20, 2007
The devices, laws, and sets in engineering worlds are not selfless, they are in fact Slaves.


they do so becuase I force them to do so.


Really? I am afraid that you have things backward.

The device is a slave to you? you make it perform if it refuses to work? where did i hear the expression "it doesnt Want to work"?
If the device is not happy ( i.e. internal conflicts) or is hungry (no power) or not healthy (something broken), can you force it to work? or do you submit to its needs and provide what it needs in order for it to work? you really cant force it to do anything that it doesnt want to do. even you have to maintain the right environment so you keep it happy. systems shut down just because the temp is little higher than what they like. Dont they? who is the slave now?

Once you provide that, it works like a charm. that is not the behavior of a slave at all. it is the behavior of something selfless, that will do anything for you PROVIDED you do the right things for it. That is Slavery??? far from it .... I think

I force the system without regard to how idividual elements of it might feel. This is great in science


Ooh really? ever tried to overload a fuse? or just overheat it? or spam a network? if you disregard their feeling, they dont work. they shut down. period. you cant even get a ball-point pen to work (i.e write) unless it feels full and warm. can you? i tell you, i tried that many time. and it didnt obey me even after i cursed it and its ancestors many many times. it didnt even bother to respond to my insults. it ignored me completely.

Disregarding the system's needs and conditions IS NOT SCIENCE. That is wishful thinking.

Enforced selflessnes is not selflessness at all but only slave service under the yoke of tyranny


Very true. However, the systems we talking about here are not forced to do anything. They do what they are designed to do with no objection and as long as they live. They have their needs and demands, if you provide that they will serve you willingly. It is not forced behavior. It is natural.
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