Just as an aside, that parable is not to indicate that the throngs of people were fed with the fish and bread, but that once they brought those items out and started sharing, others who had brought their own food then brought them out and shared. So that all were fed, and much was left over.

As for the water into wine, and the walk on water, men can do that today (through trickery in the former and technology in the latter), so why are we to believe that perhaps in that day, someone did not think of the way to do it? ANd decided to keep the method a secret to inspire people? This of course would be against the idea that it was a miracle (and hence against the Christian faith), but it could have been done with answers we have available today. SO trickery, technology or Miracle - call it what you want. That it was widely reported seems to give more evidence to the fact it did happen for whatever reason.

He influences things in away to make it possible for us to use our own free will.I would like to hear more. I think this is a great entry waiting to happen. I'm very interested it in

Yes it is a great topic, but one that needs more space and patience than what is possible here. I hope to get to it sometime and try. However i can say this. He is very much involved in running the affairs of ALL his creations. None of them can continue outside His Master Plan, if you want to call it that way. Things run according to His laws which He created for the universe to function. At The Same Time, He sometimes overrides these laws to make someting in particular happen outside of the normal course of things. i am NOT assuming or imagining that. In Qura'an He said " He Overrides His own Laws". and as i said before, you really have to read ALL Three Books to get the full picture.

how he influences things in order to make us able to use our free will? it is very counterintutive but think about this:

If things are behaving Only according to absolute natural laws then we, and anything in the universe, really have no way of deciding anything according to our own will. by exactly following His laws, things will, and can, proceed in a predetrmined way. However, for us to have free will he overrides these laws and give us a chance to use it.

As a small example: a baby is left overnight on the side of the road or in a dumpster, wild animals are all around or weather and/or the surroundings are all point to one result if His natural Laws were strictly applied and left to work as they are supposed to. the baby will be eaten or die and possibly dismembered. That is the natural laws. no surprise in that and no one will be astonished if that happens. And no one will have any chance of doing anything about it. However, he interferes and influences these wild animals and make them go away and give the baby more immunity than usual to its surroundings and it stays alive until some one discovers it. NOW this person will have to decide what to do. Ignore the whole thing and walk away, call the police, take the baby and care for it personally, take it to a care center. You see how many choices that person have by God's intereference? I think you got the point. There is more subtle things He does that affects our ability to carry out our free will.

I find it really very amazing that people say the universe runs by natural laws and there is really no reason to say that a God is responsible for that because these laws just Natural. in other words, we humans have our DNA and the Universe has its Laws, i.e. its DNA and we all just run accordingly, ergo ... no need to say there is a God who is responsible for all that.

Why do I find that amazing? for the following simple reason: If that is the case, why isnt the universe and us, humans, behaving in an exact way according to those laws? if these laws are free from his control why not every healthy person live to be 85? why not every hard-working person is rewarded accordingly? why is a person like Stephen Hawking who is almost more dead than alive still alive AND the greatest Physicist in the last half of the 20th century? according to every law we know, this guy should be dead .... long time ago. not only dead, he should never have been able to do anything other than breathe for few years before he dies .... long... long time ago. why is a person living in a great home and fantastic conditions still turns out to be a bum while another born and raised in a terrible miserable crime-infested place turns out to be a great doctor or a comedian or a writer?

you say, these are just flukes of nature? well. laws dont have flukes. either it is the Natural Law or it is God's Law. if it is Natural, nature doesnt change its mind. it is not a thinking thing that can decide to produce a fluke. But God is and can and He manages these laws to make it possible for us to carry out our free will, to apply choices His interference creates for us.

The topic is more desreving, but I hope to elaborate more later.

--The Torah is an integrated part of the Old Testament, in fact the foundation of it, not just based on it. Also called the Pentateuch. The Engile...I have no idea what this is. I've not only never heard of it, but I couldn't even find it in a google search or on wiki. Nothing. ThinkAloud, could you shed more light on this? I'm up for learning. What about the Book of Mormon? You said the Qura'an was the last, but I think the Book of Mormon is more recent. Should we not read that as well?Finally, ThinkAloud, I love your way. It's beautiful. God is at work with you.

First, thanks. I try. And I hope you are correct. I never take Him for granted.

As for the Engile. That is what the book that ONLY contains the words that Jesus HIMSELF relayed as from God is called in Eastern Christianity and also in Qura'an. The NT contains some of Jesus' sayings NOT all. it also contains sayings from others who claim that it was also from God and in addition the NT uncludes historical stories and interpretion of what Jesus said. Engile, is just God's word from Jesus's mouth. nothing else. same for Torah and Qura'an. the OT contains the same additional things like the NT. The only one that doesnt have any additions like that is Qura'an. The three Books Torah, Engile and Qura'an have essentially the same message and they compliment each other and give a clear picture of the whole thing.

As for the Book of Mormon it is not a new Book from God, by their own account it is just a different interpretition of the NT. just like what other people did in the OT and NT themselves. God's Exact words are in the three unique books. Torah, Engile and Qura'an in order of revelation. The following verse from Qura'an says " We revealing to you a Book CONFIRMING what we revealed before and Superseeding it". Then in THE LAST VERSE revealed of the Qura'an it says " TODAY, I completed your religion for you AND perfected my blessing on you".

The problem of confusion that most people have is due to the extra writings in the NT and OT. these writings are NOT God's words, they are interpretition of what God revealed to Moses and Jesus. The problem is no one preserved both messengers' revealed words separate from others' writings. In Qura'an it was kept separate. and the confusion in Islam is also due to the same problem. some Muslim scholars interpret Qura'an in a very strict and very fanatic way. but the good thing is the exact words of God in Qura'an is available in a separate text and everyone can read them separate from those opinions and judge the meaning for him/her self. I wish the Torah and the Engile are made available to every one the same way Qura'an is. I dont know if they are even exist anymore. but if you take ALL the words said by other than Moses and Jesus from the OT and the NT you will come close to the complete texts and you will have much less confusion and contradiction. Also translations have a major part in creating that confusion. as an example the word used by Jesus refering to God is "Father". He used it refering to himself as "My Father" and ALSO refering to others as in "Your Father". To take that word "Father" to mean what we now use it for, is misleading. since if we do, then every one of us is a son of God. Obviously Jesus didnt mean that at all. He used a word refering to God and himself or to God and other humans. that was translated as Father and is used in a completely different meaning ONLY when he refered to himslef. that is a major source of confusion for many many people Christians or not.

See where I'm going?

No DG, i dont see where you are going, i dont think you see that either .

Before i try answering, some of your questions let me remind you that you forgot completely what i said in my last comment to you which was: First Things First.

Before you start asking what or who is God, why does He do that, why not that why is He is a he, why is He gender neutral ....etc. why bother with all that if HE does not exist.

First look into that question. and that question CAN NOT be answered by all those why's. His existence is independent from all that. He said His existence is evident in His creations. nothing else will prove his existence to anyone who uses his intellectual ability that He gave to each Human. If we dont use our logic and brains in that, there is no need to bother with all those questions.

i think i said that before, but at the risk of repeating myself too many times, here it is:

All the information and knowledge we have about this universe say one absolute thing: Nothing, Nothing at all exists by itself out of nothingness.everything we see or feel or detect have a cause behind it. This is the universe we are in. Same thing in the behavior of things in that universe. They go according to certain laws. we discovered some of them, others we still trying to. but the fact remains that there are laws which govern this universe.

If we cant find anything to support the idea that something can exist on its own out of nothing, then we MUST answer this question: Who made this universe and these laws and caused them to exist?

Everything we know about logic point to this: anything must be either a Creator, or a Creation. since the universe as we know it IS NOT A CREATOR (it never creates anything, it just keeps manipulating the SAME amount of matter and energy around) then it MUST BE A CREATION. and if so, then it must have a Creator.

keep in mind that there is no other choice, it is a creator or a creation. like being a + or - charge there is no third option (remember neutral is an equal numbers of +'s and -'s). that is the way everything we know tells us.

If you or anyone does not accept that, then it is not logic that we using. Hypothesis and assumptions are ok, but those do not tell us anything that we can use in real life. Logic does. using logic we arrived at many facts we didnt know exist and we cant even imagine what they are ... like gravity fro example. but we know they exist. because their actions. Go'd action is The Creations themselves i.e Gravity, Stars, Electrons, Orbits, black holes ...Laws etc.

again, keep in mind that proofs by deduction is a fundamental method in logic. it is used all the time in math and science.

Just work on that first, does He exist or Not.

You say God is Gender neutral, my very good friend states God is a man

You say God is gender neutral. Why?

Again, the nature of what God is and is not comes after deciding His existence.

Believers may differ on what "He IS" but they also believe in this: regardless of the differences in the answer to the above question we ALL agree that He exist and HE will decide which of us is correct. or may be both are correct. there is no fundamental contradiction between the two ideas. Your friend does not say that God is a man. I believe your friend is saying He Came down as a man. i dont say that. but assuming your friend is correct, how else would God come down in order for human to understand and deal with Him. come down as a Ghost, an angel, as a star? how exactly would he come in your opinion.

so in fact both of us differ in one point and that is : did he come down or not? that has nothing to do with what he is or if He exist.

I say, we dont know what he looks like. God says nothing we know is like Him, and your friend says God came down as a man. well, where is the contradiction????

"The mountain shook and crumbled in front of moses eyes."Literally or figurative? Has anyone before or since heard from God and seen a mountain shake and crumble in front of their eyes?

Literally. That what Qura'an and Torah say.

You cant have enough miracles can you? and according to your logic that should be a personal miracle. no general ones. no one should believe others . everyone should recieve a personal miracle in order to believe.

well, if you look at the verse i quoted before. everyone gets one. IN THEMSELVES. that is not enough for you i understand.

then, let me ask you this: why would he do that? does HE really NEED your belief, or mine or anyone else for that matter?

He absolutely doesnt NEED anything including the beliefs of all of humanity. all He said is this: I am your creator, the proof is in you and the universe around you and here is my guide book for you to live in this life. Use the Free will I granted you to believe in my existence,in my prophets, in my books and in the day of judgment and follow my guidance and i will reward you on the day of judgement. If your choce is against all that i will punish you because you did not use what i gave you (your Mind) to think, contemplate and ponder what your eyes see. By doing that you arrived at the wrong conclusion because of your bias against the truth and the evidence. That calls for punishnment.

That is fair in my opinion.

According to a lot of my time invested in the bible studies, objectively I have come to conclude a lot of these stories to be figurative metaphors if believable at all. Specifically the stories of Jesus making a blind man see, feeding crowds of people with two fish, making wine out of water, the sermon on the mount.

again, this is trivial compared to the main question. if he really exist and he created all this universe, is that a big deal to do all what you mention. In my opinion these are very very trivial things compared to creating a human, or a universe.

So I cannot agree with you sentence. "They dont keep sending you to classes and give you new text book all your life, do they?"Here I ask about God interacting with us, and I question the supposition that God did at one time communicate with us but then stopped because we either didn't' take him seriously, or believe, or for whatever reason. I would assume it takes God little or no time to decide to do something, and if so I would expect God doesn't go through a change of mind.

and why not? you didnt answer my question. do they keep sending you to classes? god's purpose in sending prophets was to convey the guidelines i mentioned above. once they are complete, what is the purpose of sending any more? to convince you or me more? and He needs our approval? he gave us clear guidelines and a proof and a free will. and many other blessing whether we believe in Him or not.

If people CHOOSE not to admit of the obvious logic and facts, you think He suffers? That diminishes anything related to Him in the least. well, he doesnt and nothing really diminishes him in any way. but He said this which describes us in a very truthful way: "Humans are ignorant, arrogant and unjust to 'themselves'". notice that "themselves". not to him, but to themselves.

we really are arrogant for sure. as if He really Needs us so bad that he will send each individual a physical miracle to proove his existence to each of us. Oooh really? and for what? what would He get from that?
That is arrogance personified in each human for sure.

Regarding direct evidence...""they ask for a direct evidence and when We show them the proof they say it is just magic".Well I agree it would be difficult to bring everybody on board with evidence but the fact is, there is no direct evidence, its all indirect, its also from a time when evidence was and is not reliable, not sophisticated. It has also been rewritten and rewritten and taken as fact.

Great, you actually confirm what He said. Isnt that a proof in itself? you admit that even if He sends a proof still it will not be enough and AT THE SAME TIME you still require that.

Amazing logic. do you do that in your math class? or science class? you will be kicked out of the class faster than a blink of an eye. You said you want scientific evidence, for your own sake USE SCIENTIFIC methods. not contradictory thinking. This is an insult to science too, you know that?

I also just do not see any compelling reason to think there is one higher power, I would tend to find it more believable that another race from another part of the galaxy or universe visited us around that time and purported to be this higher power in our form or appearing as one of us.

I see, you believe that something that we have no evidence of its existence is more believable than something we have a proof of, not absolute but still a scientific proof. And that is scientific?

Any way, take the arguement to its conclusion. Dont stop in the middle of it. and what is that conclusion? it is this: Who created those Aliens? you are going in a circle here.

No matter where you go, it is that nagging question: who created what we see or say? the onl;y logical answer is a CREATOR. just ONE GOD otherwise they would be different systems with different laws which again contradicts everything we know. All natural laws are the same in the universe.

You say God is gender neutral. Why?I would like to hear ThinkAloud's response as well. However, I have a feeling that it is somewhere along the same lines as the amoeba

No Contego, not amoeba..... my goodness. God and amoeba? that is funny ...... from the Most High to the most low.

He is gender Neutral because He is unique. He encompasses EVERYTHING. male, female, man, woman, alien .... all these are not unique they have opposites and are not complete in themselves. HE IS complete and nothing else is like HIM. That is all He said about that. and we CANT know about Him more than what he said about Himself.

Not a topic covered in any religious text I've read. I guess God never thought we'd make it off this rock?

you dont keep track of the answers do you? i quoted you a verse saying the exact opposite of your assumption. He actually expects us to discover Him through our science and logic. in ourselves and in the Horizons around us.

In another verse, he said this : "There will come a day when Earth will be in its best form (as a bride) and its inhabitants will think that they are in COMMAND of it. Then our order will come to It and it will become as it never was anything"

so you see, he expect us to develop to the point that we think we have complete control on Earth that we can actually Command it. Then i guess what the rest of the verse means is that the day of Judgement will arrive. since Earth will be no more.

Dont assume things. I said read the three books if you looking for the full complete pictur. He in fact challenges us to explore His universe and discover its majesty.

Just as in science and knowledge in general, incomplete knowledge of a topic is worse than the ignorance of it. Just keep that in mind.

"First look into that question. and that question CAN NOT be answered by all those why's. His existence is independent from all that. He said His existence is evident in His creations. nothing else will prove his existence to anyone who uses his intellectual ability that He gave to each Human. If we dont use our logic and brains in that, there is no need to bother with all those questions."

A. Show me where this is written.
B. If it is written, does it in fact not just contradict what stated statement?
C. If it contradicts the statement does is it not in fact, not a fact?

Speaking on logic... is it more logical to believe, that God performed all of these things through written history, but then stopped performing things in front of us once we became scientifically inclined, or that man supposed God did, in order to explain the world in an era when things were not explained by because, science did not exist?

"that parable is not to indicate that the throngs of people were fed with the fish and bread, but that once they brought those items out and started sharing, others who had brought their own food then brought them out and shared. So that all were fed, and much was left over."

The story I am aware of, is a literal connotation in which food was procured from a single serving of fish, the wine from a water, the walking on water, I've just heard about that, but all of these are the claimed "miracles". Perhaps in the time, 2000 years ago, it would be a miracle for a mass of people to all share their food with each other, sort of like a potluck, but I have always been taught that the miracle was the producing the food from a small quantity and not the potluck. I could be wrong though and if so I'll admit my wrong.

I find it hard to believe that such a story of a potluck would make it into the bible but maybe. In light of walking on water and resurrection form the dead, it's not exactly in the same category.

"If you or anyone does not accept that, then it is not logic that we using. Hypothesis and assumptions are ok, but those do not tell us anything that we can use in real life. Logic does. using logic we arrived at many facts we didnt know exist and we cant even imagine what they are ... like gravity fro example. but we know they exist. because their actions. Go'd action is The Creations themselves i.e Gravity, Stars, Electrons, Orbits, black holes ...Laws etc.

again, keep in mind that proofs by deduction is a fundamental method in logic. it is used all the time in math and science.

Just work on that first, does He exist or Not."

In this search I've not ruled out any information. I just question why God is assumed to be a man today when "Gods" of the past represented both sexes. Your God as a man, means as much to you as Hera or Aphrodite did to the Greeks of old, yet today you and I are comfortable referring to Greek mythology as such, and I am comfortable referring to religion and the existence of God as mythology as well.

I'm not ready to close the book on that yet, maybe never. Based on the scientific evidence, these proofs you say, laws of the universe, we understand them but not fully, we also don't understand a lot more then we do. For example, we have no recorded history beyond 7000 years ago, yet we have evidence to prove the existence of modern man for the last 2 million years.

What of these people? Were they brought here from another planet? Created in the garden of Eden as Adam and Eve? Was our entire race started as an experiment by another culture in the galaxy millions of years ago. Just because we cannot create life in the same we we assume God can, doesn't mean it cannot be done.

For example, the entity "Q" from startrek, maybe you know of it, maybe you don't. Of course the character is "manmade" but in the story sense he, has the powers of God. The power of changing laws of the universe, the power to make people appear, disappear, to change their attitudes, The "Q" (plural) race are all alike in that respect. How do you or I know we are not some product or experiment of a creature like the "Q". Certainly we humans have grown up with a belief in different religions worshiping one or many Gods, or the planet.

I have no problem ruling in the possibel presence of alien life, that is life beyond our planet, in fact without any scientific data to suggest yes or no on that question I must assume since we are here, that there are others out there as well. Hard to find one cockroach and not open the fridge to find hundreds. Same principal.

For many many years the Earth was believed to be the center of the universe and sun, stars and all the planets supposedly revolved around it. That has changed, but scientific proof of a creator a God who we must be accountable to, who we hear from, who's wishes we should follow, what those wishes are, has not.

"He actually expects us to discover Him through our science and logic."

A. How does he expect us to do that?
B. How do you know he expects us to do that?
C. When will we be advanced enough for it to happen, or will be just enlighten us?

We have already achieved the point where we are capable of destroying ourselves with no hope of surviving via nuclear weapons, yet even now, we have no direct evidence that God cares, or has involved himself any more then in the past.

"incomplete knowledge of a topic is worse than the ignorance of it."

I find that to be an opinion of a expert, who knows a whole lot about nothing.

"HE IS complete and nothing else is like HIM. That is all He said about that. and we CANT know about Him more than what he said about Himself."

What he said about himself, but God has never come to visit us, he has always spoken through one man or another, be it, Jesus, Moses, David Koresh, George W Bush, or the pope.

Who do you trust?

"You cant have enough miracles can you? and according to your logic that should be a personal miracle. no general ones. no one should believe others . everyone should receive a personal miracle in order to believe."

If God is all powerful, cares about the existence of people on Earth to the extent he has ordered us to not kill each other, God should be doing everything in God's power, which according to you all, is limitless, to stop it, giving us all a clear and indisputable personal experience or a bunch of them, would surely clear it up.

"I see, you believe that something that we have no evidence of its existence is more believable than something we have a proof of, not absolute but still a scientific proof. And that is scientific?"

If you are referring to the possible existence of life outside of Earth then yes I am in firm belief that it is possible here's why.

We know this planet exists, we know this sun exists and is required for life on this planet. We know other suns exist, we know other planets orbit other suns. I know life exists in my city/community, and I know life exists in my neighboring city/community, life exists in any place where conditions permit it to. Not always of the highest order, but in some way.

Beyond that, we know there are an almost uncountable number of stars in the universe, we also don't know how many there are but surely there are plenty of chances for conditions for life to occur, we don't know the ratios and there is no confirmation that there is a planet with conditions just like ours. But there is no confirmation that there is not. There is however confirmation that other planets do orbit other stars. If God does exist and created just us, why would he make the rest of the universe?

It is logical to conclude that it is likely there is another place outside the solar system like ours, because of the number of opportunities that exist. Trillions upon trillions, uncountable numbers of stars, Practically Infinity.

Scientifically we know that humans have evolved over the course of millions of years, and large mammals over the past 65 million years since the dinosaurs. Before that, the order of various giant lizards were too good of a hunter killer for large mammals to develop. The major religions of today, weren't around at the beginning of recorded history, Mesopotamians and Egyptians. Greeks and Romans later, worshiped more then one God.

Each was responsible for different aspects of life, war, crops, finances, even beauty. So which is it, One God or many, male of female, real or manmade?

Where is the logic in everyone believing in something different if there is only one real and correct answer?

Contego posts:

I've really enjoyed reading the give and take in this discussion.
Gen.1:26, When God created man, "He said, 'Let us make man to Our Image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea...."

Created in God's image and likness has been mentioned a couple of times and that sent me to do some research.

The Douay Rheims commentary "Let us make man in our image and likeness" means. This image of God in man is not in the body, but in the soul which is a spiritual substance endued with understanding (intellect) and free will. And how cool is this?----"Our image"--- God speaks here in the plural number to insinuate the plurality of persons in the Deity.

"image and likeness" the reason these two words are used is a twofold one, a natural and supernatural one. For something to be the image of a person or of some other thing, it must be to a certain degree, like that person or thing. "Likeness" signifies a still closer degree of resemblance. If one person is almost the same as another, we can say they are alike. Image applies to the natural and likeness to the supernatural resemblance of man to God.

The natural likeness of man to God consists in that man has a spiritual soul which not only makes his body live, but is also immortal, reasonable, and gifted with free will. These 3 natural gifts belong to the nature of the soul and cannot be lost though they can be marred or disfigured.

Man's supernatural likeness to God are sanctifying grace, where the Holy Ghost dwells in the soul and carries with it the theological virtues of hope, faith and charity.

The body of man bears no likeness to God but is the dwelling place (temple) of the soul. Man's body is the masterpeice of God's creation. Man should therefore, hold his body in honor and not pollute it by sin. Glorify and bear God in your body." 1Cor.6:20

A. Show me where this is written.B. If it is written, does it in fact not just contradict what stated statement?C. If it contradicts the statement does is it not in fact, not a fact?

"He actually expects us to discover Him through our science and logic."A. How does he expect us to do that?B. How do you know he expects us to do that?

I already told you where it is written. The fact that you use your mind, not to reach a conclusion but to confuse yourself even more is something you and you alone can correct. If you spend half of the time wasted in all these superfluous questions looking into the source you will be using your time more effeciently.

Having avoided the main question is an indication that you are not really looking for answers. You seem to already have your answers. posing questions is fine, not looking where the answers are supposed to be is not the way to reach any conclusion.

I find that to be an opinion of a expert, who knows a whole lot about nothing.

i dont find it that way at all. in fact i know that it is a fact. i cant count the times that people who know few things about say engineering design suggest incredibly foolish things.

Where is the logic in everyone believing in something different if there is only one real and correct answer?

I explained that to you before, it is not different when it comes to the main issue. all agree He exist, and also agree on all His attributes. The difefrence is in how they percieve of Him. and that by definition depends on each person. As i also said before, We all dont know much about how He looks, what kind of being He is ... etc. anything you hear or read about these things are just individual perception. no believer in any of the three religions disagree on that.

The correct answer? well ... we will all see it on the day of judgement. He said this about it speaking to humans on that day: " Today We removed the vail from over your vision and now you see the Truth"

I've really enjoyed reading the give and take in this discussion.Gen.1:26, When God created man, "He said, 'Let us make man to Our Image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea...."

Thanks lola. sometimes it gets frustrating though.

This quote is from the first page of the OT. But it doesnt say Who is the source of that. did God say that to Moses? to whom did He exactly reveal this statement?

This is what gives people like DG reasons to start questioning even His existence. Is that statement from the Torah? Torah is the exact words of god revealed to Moses. the OT and the NT contain others' statements and opinions and recollections of things.

People get confused between God's actual words and others' understanding of what he said. I wish that the Torah and the Engile, the revelations to Moses and Jesus respectively, which contain ONLY the exact words of God to each of them were available without the extra writings by others.

What he said about himself, but God has never come to visit us, he has always spoken through one man or another, be it, Jesus, Moses, David Koresh, George W Bush, or the pope. Who do you trust?

You equating Jesus and Moses with these people? where is your judgement?

In all what you hear or read about people claiming that God told them things, and this was the main point in the article, did you ever see anyone of them produce a complete text containing a belief system of any kind except Moses, Jesus and Mohammad? and the three Texts are known by name: Torah, Engile and Qura'an. nothing else exist like these three books. all others are humans thinking and may be meditating and writing what they think. But these three did not say it was their thinking or meditating and each proved it was from God in his own way.

Ignoring all that and not concentrating on the most likely sources is really not a way to look for anythjing close to the truth.

You dont go and learn math or any topic from a text authored by some unknown person who claimes he knows that topic, do you? You go to the known scientists who know the topic.

the same for religion. Go to the texts which represent the record of what these three men say is what God told them. THEN judge for yourself.

Just remember that the OT and the NT contain writings by others. you have to separate that from God's own words. Qura'an is easy, it doesnt contain any other writings. Muslims kept God's words separate from other sayings by even Mohammad himself as well as those by other scholars. these are in different texts other than Qura'an.

It is a big job to search the three books , that is true. But no one ever said the search for the truth is easy.

"Gen.1:26, When God created man, "He said, 'Let us make man to Our Image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea....""

Comes from a book written by man right? Genesis, in the bible?

Lula pilgrims, writes a bunch of things about how the idea is more of we are like God, that is to say man (+woman) is like God but not in image but in similarity. I ask you why it is evident that God exists? Why is that logical? Why do we often claim God to be a he, rather then a she. If our likeness and similarity is equally applied between the human sexes, male and female, and our similarity to God is more in our human nature, that of a soul. Why are females not given the same credit when describing God? Why do they have dissimilar roles in religion if our spirit or soul is the important distinction rather then sex, why is it not equitable that we should be led by women clerics, women priests, why not a woman pope and a woman God?

Why is it written always in the bible, the man made book, you choose to reference, that God is "he" rather then "she" or "it"? Is it just the preferred word?

"The fact that you use your mind, not to reach a conclusion but to confuse yourself even more is something you and you alone can correct. If you spend half of the time wasted in all these superfluous questions looking into the source you will be using your time more effeciently."

Efficient use of my time is not my concern or goal, finding satisfying and answers I can convince myself are correct is. Though it may be a waste for you to answer my questions, they are not superfluous to me, they are in fact very necessary, for me, to form a basis for a logical conclusion. The sources of religion, to this point in my search, have turned up, entirely man made or unprovable of any other type of sourcing. i.e. extra terrestrial life, or supernatural authoring.

Call me silly, stupid, superfluous, I have a need to understand what I believe in. Or at the very least a trust in what other believe in as to be true. I don't have that yet, I don't know if I will, ever. I was unable to stand in front of hundreds and profess a faith in Catholicism, and any other religion when it was asked of me, further I cannot today answer a full and positive faith, expectation, and belief in a higher power or God. To me it's important to understand why others do. Do they just accept it because they have decided it is less work to undertake a journey of discovery? Yes some do. Do others have a firm belief that their belief is correct, God does exist, the prophets of old are real, their miracles did happen, they are unexplainable and truly divine intervention? Yes, but not me as of yet.

"Having avoided the main question is an indication that you are not really looking for answers."

What is the main question? Does God talk to people? I have engaged that entirely throughout my analysis of the topic. Again, what is the main question?

"I explained that to you before, it is not different when it comes to the main issue. all agree He exist, and also agree on all His attributes. The difefrence is in how they percieve of Him. and that by definition depends on each person. As i also said before, We all dont know much about how He looks, what kind of being He is ... etc. anything you hear or read about these things are just individual perception. no believer in any of the three religions disagree on that."

I do not agree that there is sufficient evidence that God exists. I also do not agree that sufficient evidence exists God does not exist. So where does that put me? There are others like me or am I all alone in that respect? As for God's attributes, nobody seems to be able to agree on them, nor do they seem to be able to agree to what God wants'. There are more then three religions, btw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png

"The correct answer? well ... we will all see it on the day of judgement. He said this about it speaking to humans on that day: " Today We removed the vail from over your vision and now you see the Truth""

Oh yes the old Catholic scare me into believing trick. I think I've read/heard that one before, lots of people walk through life afraid of God hoping their faith or pretend faith will secure them a place in God's favor by just remembering judgment day.

I hope the veil is uncovered so that we do get the truth. I'm also hoping it's unveiled on supernatural phenomenon, ghosts, and spirits, all sorts of things people believe in without scientific basis.

"This quote is from the first page of the OT. But it doesnt say Who is the source of that. did God say that to Moses? to whom did He exactly reveal this statement?"

The point I make is, so it is said, that God spoke, he never seems to speak to me.

Just others, saying to me or you, that God speaks to them, or just in books, written by men, claiming that he spoke to others, hundreds of years ago. My point men claim lot of things. GWB invasion of Iraq, David Koresh writing the seven seals...

How about this woman...

"She had nearly reached the point of abandoning her impressions of the femininity of the Holy Spirit for the sake of unity in the Church when she received

"""the vision."""

The vision served to confirm to her and others that what she had believed to be Scriptural truth was indeed sustained therein, and it encouraged her to press forward in sharing the matter. Following this, she continually received more light from the Bible and other sources on this subject, including the fact that the Hebrew word for Spirit (ruach) is feminine. She learned that Jews regard the concept of "Holy Spirit" and the "Divine Presence" ("shekhinah"...both of which are "feminine" words in Hebrew) are one and the same."

She sounds like she might be onto something religious, and guess who she is. Lois Irene Scott Roden, she's an American religious leader,

Let it be known, Lois Irene Scott Roden, well see the other wiki link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lois_Roden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh

Another comment I cite is...

"contain ONLY the exact words of God"

Just how do you know, that these are ONLY the exact words of God? How do you know, how should I know? I'm not saying above that David Koresh was God or that George W. Bush is either, I'm saying both of them are men, humans, just like you and me, and just because they say God talks to them, just because the Pope talks to them, talks through them, doesn't mean for me that it is good enough for me to take as fact. It may be for you and thats fine. I still disagree with that assumption completely.

"You equating Jesus and Moses with these people? where is your judgement?"

Does anyone writing today personally know Jesus, Does anyone know Moses? I know of, people who believed David Koresh, a man who was alive, who was documented by the best available means of our time, by first hand accounting, believed he was the Son go God as he claimed.

There are any number of people who will claim that Jesus was the Son of God, that Moses spoke to God, or that any number of religious texts claim it to be true, and fact. Do we know for a fact, either of these people existed any more then we know Hercules existed in mythology? Do we really? How do we know it wasn't a line of bs that was popular and resonates in our society today because it is more popular?

Yet it is their teaching we hold as "the way", My judgment may be that of a mad man or completely sane individual however, I find it exceedingly difficult to believe that some are able to hear from God, or converse yet I am not, and I am not, purely because I am inclined to look for proof of his existence beyond the status quo acceptance of anything that is handed down through history as fact.

#56


THINKALOUD POSTS: #62

Like Contego, I had never heard of the Engile before this. The only inspired book that I know of that contains all Christ’s words that God wanted revealed is the New Testament. You say the Engile is a book that only contains the words that Jesus Himself relayed as from God is called in Eastern Christianity. Could you explain the connection between the Engile and Eastern Christianity?

Think Aloud, is the Engile the Muslim book of what they think are ALL of Christ’s actual words? It doesn’t make sense that it would be the actual four Gospels because Muslim scholars believe that Jews and Christians perverted not only the interpretation of the Old and New Testament, but the actual texts themselves. (this is understandable and the only way that the many clear discrepancies between Judeo-Christian Sacred Scripture and the Qur’an could be explained).

Muslim terminology for scripture are the Tawrat was given to Moses and is identified with the Torah (first 5 books of Moses: Genesis-Deuteronomy). The Zabur was given to David and is identified with the Psalms. The Injil was given to Christ and is identified with the four Gospels.
The Qur’an is the Muslim holy book which they hold to be completely inerrant. It’s a record of dictations allegedly given to Mohammed by God through the angel Gabriel. It contains 114 chapters known as surahs.

THINKALOUD POSTS: #62


Of the Qur’an we know that Mohammed didn’t write it since Muslims report he that was illiterate. It was written down or memorized by others and then collected after Mohammed’s death. Of the Qur’an Pope John Paul II said, “Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Qur’an, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation. It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God’s self revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, definitively has been set aside”.

In view of the radical disagreements between the contents of the Qur’an and the Old and New Testaments, Christians cannot honor the Qur’an as Scripture or as authentic prophecy.

THINKALOUD POSTS:

This is not entirely correct.

Neither Moses, Jesus nor Mohammed produced a complete text containing a belief system. We hold that about 3, 300 years ago, Moses wrote the first Five Books of the Old Testament known as The Law. While it was the earliest substantial part which formed the book of Scripture the Israelites possessed, it wasn’t the entire belief system. To this were added the Prophets and the Writings forming the complete Old Testament which is thought to have been compiled in 430 BC under Esdras and Nehemiah resting upon the authority of the famous historian Josephus who lived immediately after our Lord. Other authorities contend that it was 100BC that the Old Testament was closed by the inclusion of The Writings. It is for certain by this date, 100 years before Christ the Old Testament existed precisely as we have it now.

Christ never wrote anything (other than something with His finger in the sand) and neither did Mohammed.

On the other hand, you may already be aware of this as later on you post, “the same for religion. Go to the texts which represent the record of what these three men say is what God told them. THEN judge for yourself.”

So, I apologize if I seem to be nit-picking.

THINKALOUD POSTS:

I beg your pardon.

All the books of the Old and New Testament are sacred (inspired). The meaning of inspiration is that God is the Author although He Himself didn’t write it. The Holy Spirit inspired God’s chosen human writers to write down in the manner and style of the day what He wanted them to write and He guided them to the extent that they wrote faithfully what they had been taught. This working together of God and man in the writing of Sacred Scripture is called inspiration and it covers everything that is in the whole Bible.

Yes, it’s difficult to secure the correct interpretation of certain passages or to grasp the principles involved, but our difficulty in comprehending everything avails nothing against the known fact that Sacred Scripture is the Word of God.

Since God is the Author, the books of Scripture teach without error the truths God intends to reveal for the sake of our salvation. This truth found in Sacred Scripture is expressed in different ways in various literary forms that tell everything from wise sayings, to stories and descriptions of actual events that explain ultimate reality or convey a moral or religious lesson.

Becasue God is the Author of Sacred Scripture it is inerrant, that is, it contains no formal error for it’s impossible that God the Supreme Truth can utter that which is not true and we certainly can’t restrict inspiration.

Of course, we know that Sacred Scripture on its material side is a human document handed down to us in a human way. It didn’t drop to earth from Heaven. Even though the original documents have long since perished we do have some of the earliest copies that are perfectly reliable as has been established by comparison of hundreds of independent transcriptions reaching back to the times when the originals were certainly in existence.