Muslim terminology for scripture are the Tawrat was given to Moses and is identified with the Torah (first 5 books of Moses: Genesis-Deuteronomy). The Zabur was given to David and is identified with the Psalms. The Injil was given to Christ and is identified with the four Gospels.The Qur’an is the Muslim holy book which they hold to be completely inerrant. It’s a record of dictations allegedly given to Mohammed by God through the angel Gabriel. It contains 114 chapters known as surahs

I think you got it all in that statement. It was my poor spelling of the word "Ingil" as "Engile". Same with Tawrat, i called it the way people usually refer to it. But the 3 books you mentioned ARE the ones i meant. Also the Zabur to David.

I identified the word "Engile" as the book that contains God's words to Jesus and nothing else. the same for Torah revealed to Moses.

No disagreement on that statement at all.

In view of the radical disagreements between the contents of the Qur’an and the Old and New Testaments, Christians cannot honor the Qur’an as Scripture or as authentic prophecy.

I understand that. All I am saying the 3 books should be read then everyone decides for him/her self. The Pope decided that, that is his right and same for anyone else including you and me of course.

You didnt adress my point that the Torah and Ingil (see i used your spelling this time) are not available as unique and separate books in order to differentiate between God's words and others opinions and interpretation.

Of the Qur’an we know that Mohammed didn’t write it since Muslims report he that was illiterate. It was written down or memorized by others and then collected after Mohammed’s death.

That is true. It was written on different materials by his aids at the time of revelations. He instructed them to keep that separate from anything else he says. and he also reviewed what they memorized to make sure it was as he recieved them. After his death, all papers were collected in one text and reviewed against all who memorized it. That text still the same as we see it now, never revised in more than 1400 yrs even in a single letter or word. even some words are still written as they used to spell them at the time of revelations.

The method used in qura'an was not very different from what used in the OT and the NT. The only difference is that Qura'an was kept separate from all other sayings by mohammad or any other scholar or companion.

anyone can argue about whether it was God's words or Mohammad's words. But there is no confusion about what Mohammad claimed to be God's words and any other words by him or by others.

In the OT and the NT the words of God are not separate from others.

Christ never wrote anything (other than something with His finger in the sand) and neither did Mohammed. On the other hand, you may already be aware of this as later on you post, “the same for religion. Go to the texts which represent the record of what these three men say is what God told them. THEN judge for yourself.” So, I apologize if I seem to be nit-picking.

Not at all. You are not nit-picking and i dont think we disagree on much. none of the three wrote anything HIMSELF. Their aides did that. as for whether each text represents a complete belief system i disagree with you. I think each of the first two represents the same belief system with minor varaitions suitable for each era (what was revealed to other OT's prophets including Zabur as you mentioned before are considered part of Torah). The third one, qura'an, emphasizes the fact that it still the same system with the final touches to finalize it for all humanity

People can agree or disagree with qura'an's claim. but you cant escape the fact that the 3 text are amazingly similar in the main message. They only differ as i said before on what "God is". And that even Qura'an say leave it to God to judge ALL on what they say about Him on the day of judgement. I dont think anyone can disagree on that. How 3 people percieve God is immaterial to the contents of the message itself. the content of the three is almost the same. One God, Resurrection, Day of judgement, Paradise, Hellfire, Reward, and Punishment. Each system establishes essentially the same guidelines. the differences on what to eat and when and how to pray are very minor issues in my opinion.

This working together of God and man in the writing of Sacred Scripture is called inspiration and it covers everything that is in the whole Bible

i disagree on that. Inspiration to scholars and spiritual individuals are not REVELATIONS to Messengers of God.

I dont argue about them being Sacred or not. that is up to each individual. God's REVELATIONS to His specific messengers are above individual judgement when it comes to being sacred or not.

When a pious person writes his views, believers respect it and may hold it sacred but other pious believers may disagree with those writings. But with God's revelations to messengers, no disagreement on the writings, only on what they mean. That is big difference.

The two types of writings are not even close in status. God's words are not contestable, only how they are understood could be discussed. other writings could entirely be disregarded if what they mean contardicts what God's own words mean.

Stories, historical accounts and interpretations depend on individual's perspective and are not God's own words. We need the word's by themselves so we can judge other's views on them and judge for ourselves. This is important since each of us will be individually accountable for our own actions. God gave us brains for that reason. we cant say so and so told me that. If that was wrong you still accountable since you didnt use your brain to separate right from wrong according to God's own words to his Messengers. No one else other than those messengers have an authority from God to speak for HIM.

DG, I dont know if you really read the answers i gave to your questions. If you did, then you are not discussing my answers to you.

What is the main question?

After saying many times what that is you still dont know? I think i said many times it is The existence of GOD. I said "First things First". read that comment again please.

I do not agree that there is sufficient evidence that God exists

again i provided to you a logical deductive answer. You didnt even try to discuss it. you just keep repeating that there is no sfficient evidence. but you dont discuss what is proposed as evidence, so how would you arrive at anything if you dont discuss the answers available?

More to the point. What kind of proof would convince you? can you provide a logical way that might convince you? Physical proofs are not possible. we cant see God, He only talked and interacted on a personal bases with very few chosen people. For the rest of us, it is only his creations (the universe and its laws including logic ) which provide any kind of eveidence.

Just how do you know, that these are ONLY the exact words of God? How do you know, how should I know?

Does anyone writing today personally know Jesus, Does anyone know Moses?

I also answered that before: just like you know what Shakespeare wrote. i said study the history of each of those Chosen few then decide if you believe them or not.

but we use historical records and writings of contemporary scholars of those chosen few as we do with any other topic being it physics, mathematics, biology or any other kind of knowledge.

Yet it is their teaching we hold as "the way", My judgment may be that of a mad man or completely sane individual however, I find it exceedingly difficult to believe that some are able to hear from God, or converse yet I am not, and I am not, purely because I am inclined to look for proof of his existence beyond the status quo acceptance of anything that is handed down through history as fact.

you are not a mad man and your questions are justified, the problem is you dont study and discuss the answers provided.

take care and keep looking. just dont ignore the answers provided. disagree with them if you have a valid objection, but ignoring them is not the right way to any kind of convincing answers.

THINKALOUD POSTS:

I don't much of anything about the Ingil so I really can't comment on that.


I don't understand what you are getting by saying the Torah is a separate book to differentiate between God's words and others opinions and interpretation.

As for the Torah, we have already discussed that it is the first FIve Books of the Old Testament which are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The Torah, along with all the other books of the Old and New Testament, are considered to be God's written Word.



Every word in the OT and the NT are God's written words. The entire Bible is God's written Revelation.



Christians like me believe that there is no new written Revelation after the death of the last Apostle. To us, the Qur'an as well as the Book of Mormon for that matter is not God's written Revelation.




Yes, there are some similiarities between Sacred Scripture and the Qur'an. And this is not surprising given the fact that Mohammed took truths from Judaism and Christianity and mixed that with error and came up with the Qur'an. Christianity is the only revealed religion by God. All the rest contain some truth with error.

Another point I might add is we are not so much to be sweetened with the similiarities, but we are to be wary of the vast differences. Mohammad was a man of war and Islam was/is made by the sword.

Another point I might add is we are not so much to be sweetened with the similiarities, but we are to be wary of the vast differences. Mohammad was a man of war and Islam was/is made by the sword.

What you are saying is very much similar to what those who dont believe in Any of these books are saying. Bias and uninformed judgements leads to the same point.

Every word in the OT and the NT are God's written words. The entire Bible is God's written Revelation.

This defies the texts themselves. Every page in both texts contains numerous passages which clearly indicate that someone is telling a story or a history of what happens or what God said. God doesnt list descendants and their ages and the names of their wives and children. Read Genesis 6.0-6.4 and tell me that God is saying all that. it is clear that someone wrote that and only QUOTED statements are from God. The writer could not have been clearer than that. He quoted what God said. Also note the writer's reference, several times to .... the sons of God ... that was not qouted and that confirms my thinking that the idea that the words Son, and Father are the product of writers and not from God.

The texts clearly indicate different accounts for the same point as the creation story or the fact that the NT have four versions of the whole story of Jesus from start to finish. Gods words dont have different versions and different details. Gods words are unique and the same for any given point. having different versions of what God said about many points is a proof that what we read in the OT and the NT are not God's own words only, it also contains others' interpretation and recollection of them.

Closing your eyes and mind to the obvious in the texts does not help God's way in any way. In this era of ours, people use their mind to think about what they read and hear. You cant fool anyone anymore. Unless believers realize that and discuss the facts in front of us they wont be able to convince anyone who doesnt believe. on the contrary, it gives the impression that believers are deluding themselves.

Hope you think of that.

Lula posts:



But you know better. You know by now that I firmly believe every word of the Torah to be true and without error...that's becasue it's part of the OT and that is the inspired word of God.

There is no bias or uninformed judgment in what I said here in this quote. What I said is true is it not?

hey TA..you really need to get together with Sodaiho. He just said that the gospels are a product of collusion. Hmmmmm now how can you both be right? You say they are diff versions and he says they got together and fabricated the same story.

The truth is the four versions while different blend together quite well. It's four eyewittness accounts being written to a diff audience. By taking all four accounts it gives us one splendend glorious picture of the life of Christ. No collusion...no contradictions.

There is only one creation story...not diff stories. I looked at what you put down...Genesis 6:1-4. Why couldn't God be guiding the pen of Moses as he wrote this? Why not? Moses wrote this so what's the problem? We know that God spoke to Moses face to face. He was the only one that God really did this with.

The truth is the four versions while different blend together quite well. It's four eyewittness accounts being written to a diff audience. By taking all four accounts it gives us one splendend glorious picture of the life of Christ. No collusion...no contradictions

hey TA..you really need to get together with Sodaiho. He just said that the gospels are a product of collusion. Hmmmmm now how can you both be right? You say they are diff versions and he says they got together and fabricated the same story

KFC, i did not say that they are a fabrication. Please keep that in mind. your statement above, means one thing. Four people heard the words of God, each put it in his own words. I am assuming that they heard the original word from Jesus or from someone who was with jesus. but each has his own version of what he heard. the fact that the Four versions are not exactly the same means one thing: These are four versions of the Words of God. Each version have some of the exact words of God but each also contains the writer's understanding and interpretition of what he did not qoute exactly. that lead to different versions. If all four were the words of God, they would have been exactly the same. but they are not.

Listen KFC. I believe in the words of God but the opinions and interpretition of others of His words i read and can agree or disagree with them based on the Actual words that God said. I have the ability to understand and interpret His words too.

I am not questioning the authenticity of the OT or the NT. The texts themselves clearly indicate that they contain more than the words of God. Closing your eyes to that is not far from others closing their eyes to the whole thing.

Torah and Ingil (as Lola spells it ) are the exact words of God to the Israelites and then to Jesus. They dont include any opinions of others, versions by different people, or authors' names because the author was God. It is obvious from the texts themselves that when the OT and NT were written a collection of some of Gods' words and others' opinions and recollection of historical events all were put together in one text and that is what we see now. No one can change that fact since it is in the texts themselves.

Not only that. The fact that these same OT and NT were revised several times after they were first written is a proof that these are not God's exact words. If they were, then somebody committed a huge transgression. NO ONE IS ALLOWED to revise God's own words. NO ONE. no matter who he is or what kind of claims he has.

There is only one creation story...not diff stories. I looked at what you put down...Genesis 6:1-4. Why couldn't God be guiding the pen of Moses as he wrote this? Why not? Moses wrote this so what's the problem? We know that God spoke to Moses face to face. He was the only one that God really did this with.

well, at the end of Gen 2.4, it says this "Another Account of the Creation" (italics not mine). Did God say that to Moses? you cant say that KFC. God does not have two versions of what he did.

Moreover, God does not guide the pen of His messengers. He dictates His words in their memory (that is revelation) and they recite them back to the people. What they uttered after each revelation was written by the people around them and is different from what they say in the rest of their time.

Guiding the pen is not revelation from God. HE dictates his messages in certain words. HE does not leave others to formulate what he wanted His messengers to deliver to the people. HE was even more deliberate with Moses. HE delivered the words HIMSELF not through Archangel Gabriel as he did with Jesus as well as with others messengers and prophets. But in each case the words were specific and not just guiding a pen.

Pen-Guiding is inspirations of pious people trying to explain or interpret GOD's OWN WORDS. That is not revelation. They could be strict or lenient in their interpretition and they could be off the mark completely. All will be rewarded for their efforts though, but what they say is not the exact words of GOD and is open for discussion.

I dont know what happened to the original Torah and Injil, i wish some one can locate these two sacred documents. It is a shame if they are lost forever. I know that some of their contents are in the OT and in the NT. but i want the Books themselves alone with ALL HIS words only.

What I said is true is it not?

No Lola, not exactly true. Torah and Injil are His words. However, not every thing in the OT or the NT is HIS words. That is where we differ. I believe that many things in what the OT and NT contain are not from God. In fact as in the case of the Father/Son issue i believe the translation and misunderstanding misrepresent the original meaning. The same with other critical issues.

"again i provided to you a logical deductive answer. You didnt even try to discuss it. you just keep repeating that there is no sfficient evidence. but you dont discuss what is proposed as evidence, so how would you arrive at anything if you dont discuss the answers available?"

The evidence you cite, is not from first hand sources, it is also hardly historically correct. There are plenty of stories that people feel perfectly acceptable taking as figurative rather then literal connotations of history. There are no words, directly from God in any of the texts or historical documents. Only those words and ideas passed down from one man/woman to another. In exactly the same way as all the religions, mythology or taken as valid are.

In no way do any of these texts or sources approach fact, in the same way that scientific understanding can explain facts, through the scientific method, experimentation and demonstration of how things work, lots of practical facts, can be demonstrated repeatedly, to show where we came from, how as a people we evolved.

It can also attempt to explain a lot of the things we thought long ago, which have turned out to be false. Lightning and thunder, are atmospheric static electricity not the rumbling and anger of the Gods.

Think Aloud wrote, "it is clear that someone wrote that and only QUOTED statements are from God."

Of course, just like someone documented the epic of Hercules and the good morals and tails of Greek mythology. If you cannot do a better job of proving God existence then, citing books written down through the hand and adaptation of men, if you can prove in no way that God itself created these teachings, created this world for a purpose, thats ok.

Prove to me Hercules did not exist in the history of the world. Prove to me he did not slay the Hydra on the seas, for it seems to me that it is as if not more possible that a man attacked a squid which appeared to have many faces, then another man walked upon the water, and that both of these great events were recorded by men, who interpret things in their own way, biased, and uninformed, and very very imperfect.

KFC writes...
"There is only one creation story...not diff stories. I looked at what you put down...Genesis 6:1-4. Why couldn't God be guiding the pen of Moses as he wrote this? Why not? Moses wrote this so what's the problem? We know that God spoke to Moses face to face. He was the only one that God really did this with."

Why couldn't God be guiding the pen? Why couldn't he, why didn't God write it himself so it could be perfect, unbiased, and exactly what God wanted to say? Why did he choose to always through history write through people and teach through people?

You write, "We know God spoke to Moses face to face." That's a very powerful statement. Now please back it up, how do you know that? What is your best evidence that allows you to believe that? Tell me, I want to believe it too, but right now I cannot because as I see it, the best evidence is all corrupted by history and by the men who dictated it, both in the course of history and the recording of it.

There is also in my understanding a total lack of God communicating for Godself. The only people he evidently speaks to today, are religious leaders, political leaders, but my understanding is that God speaks to everyone, yet I have not heard God speak to me.

"NO ONE IS ALLOWED to revise God's own words. NO ONE. no matter who he is or what kind of claims he has."

That's exactly what Constantine did when he was Roman emperor, after the bible had been written or is that just a rumor?

ThinkAloud Posts:


I understand what you are saying here and agree other than your using the word "opinions"...but for now that's a small matter. Lets's see if we can come to some understanding as to the rest.

We know that the time from the first Book of Sacred Scripture was written to the last spanned over a thousand years and was written by different people who belonged to a culture far different from ours. SS uses a variety of literary forms that vary greatly from ours. The Gospels contain the actual words of Christ (whom Christians believe is God) which He spoke mostly in Aramaic.

To Christians, SS has God as its Author. This means we can expect a degree of reliability available nowhere else. SS contains Revelation without error. But we've seen in this discussion that this is a bit complicated and difficult to understand becasue how can God and certain human be authors of the same writings? Christians believe that God inspired the human authors to write using their own talents, abilities, and styles and in the manner and style of the day thus the great variation that you so easily recognize. There is history, poetry, parables, songs, short stories all found in SS. The Holy Spirit guided them to the extent that whatever they wrote was faithful to what they had been taught. This working together of God and man which would later produce the various books of the OT and NT is called inspiration and covers everything in the whole of SS. That's why I said that every word is written by God, not literally, but every word is meant to be there as coming from Him. Everyone of the sacred writers were the instruments of God.

To repeat: When we say that SS is the very word of God, we don't mean that He actually wrote it Himself. We mean that He inspired different human authors over a period spanning more than 1,000 years to write different books that came to be contained in what we call SS or the Holy Bible. They wrote only what God wished them to write. Therefore, God is the principal Author becasue He inspired the human writers in all that they wrote. Therefore, everything, every Book, every word in the BIble is infallibly true.

We don't have the originals, but we do have verifiable accurate copies. Yes, minor errors did occur in later copies and translations, but these have not affected the substantial content of SS and they are easily corrected by the comparative study of documents.

During this 1,000 year period there were hundreds, probably thousands of writings by various scholars that did not make the pick of the canon that would come to comprise the actual books of SS. This is no accident which ones made the cut, so to speak. They made it because they were inspired by God Himself, and without a speck of error. I believe in the inspiration of SS becasue of the Catholic Church Tradition, but for those who don't, there is reliable historical evidence and indirect passages in the OT and NT that refer to its inspiration...Isaias 8:1; Wisdom 7:15, and 2St.Peter 1:20-21.

The Qur'an doesn't fit in this category because it contains some biblical Judeo-Christian truth with error.

Some parts of SS are difficult to understand even by the scholars. That's why it must be interpretated by going back and studying the time and place of the human author. There have been changes in our understanding of parts of SS due to discoveries of language, archaelogy and history. In 1947, discoveries of ancient copies of SS and other literature found in desert caves (Dead Sea Scrolls) have helped us better understand the Old and New T.

I don't see this in any version. What version are you referring? This is what 2:4 says:

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens." KJV

Now keep in mind...Moses was NOT there. So where did he get this info from?



Christ told them that the HS would bring things to their memory. They didn't lose their personality as they wrote...you can see this in their writings sort of a partnership between them and God. Like Luke for instance, he was a Doctor and you can see he got more into specific details. Peter was a man of action and you can see that when you read the book of Mark. Mark was Peter's companion and his writing is coming from Peter's eyewitness account. But all was God breathed just the same.



All scripture is inspired of God. He was behind it all. Peter mentiones this when he said..."knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20

Remember this was the man who ran away at the first sign of trouble but then gave his life up boldly and confidently for the same God he ran away from. Obviously he knew something about God's Holy Spirit up close and personal.



When we find the Ark of the Covenant we'll find the original documents written by Moses. The Torah mentions that the words of Moses was put beside the Ark. I absolutely believe that the words in that original are the same we are reading today. Absolutely. God is not just about revelation and illumination but also about preservation. God is in control.