Hi Dan,

God always uses men to be his hands and feet. Always. But I have to tell you quite often we don't know the "whys" They can be very hard to answer...why did he put that tree in the garden in the first place? Why did he create Satan?



"And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like Moses whom the Lord knew face to face." Deuteronomy 34:10

"...Hear now my words (God speaking)If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known to him in a vision and will speak to him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth even apparently and not in dark speeches;....Numbers 12:6-8



No God speaks to his own whoever they are. God speaks to me all the time thru his word, thru the HS and thru others. I have been totally blown away sometimes when I'm thinking on what to do and the answer is right there. Sometimes it comes in the form of a scripture, a phone call or an experience.

If you are truly searching, God will speak to you and you too will be blown away. He says all that seek me will find me. I try to tell people to take the 21 day test for anyone who will listen. That is, take the book of John (21 chapters) read one chapter a day. Think about what he's saying...pray that God reveals himself to you and keep your eyes open. If you are truly seeking God knows and it will be like you got hit right between the eyes and a sword will piece your soul. You'll know.

"And you shall seeek me and find me when you shall search for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13



I agree totally.



I don't believe TA that God would ALLOW his words to be corrupted. He is preserving them. Look at history and how many times the scriptures seemed to be all burned up. Started right in Jeremiah one of the kIngs didn't like what Jeremiah wrote as scripture so he burned them but God spoke to Jeremiah again and this time put in a very specific word for that wicked king and his descendants.

I mean no disrespect to you KFC, but your evidence is not proof of fact. Three of your quotations are right from the bible. A book written by a collection of people, not God's who put their own spin on the concept of God. Just because they were "prophets" does not make them anymore then you or I.

"If you are truly searching, God will speak to you and you too will be blown away."

You choose to characterize my search as though it could be false. Well I can understand your belief in God please don't disrespect me for failing to believe in the absence of real fact and proof.

So far, the best you have presented, along with anyone else is, a repetition of the saying and ideas of a God or Gods and how their desires should be places above our own. That is not fact however.

"But I have to tell you quite often we don't know the "whys" They can be very hard to answer...why did he put that tree in the garden in the first place? Why did he create Satan?"

We don't know the whys but we know God is a man, but others know he has no sex, others still in history couldn't agree on God being limited to one single God, others still in differing civilizations couldn't agree on the same set of Gods but worshiped another set of Gods which basically represented the same series of Gods.

Explain to me, if you will, why you accept a single God, accept him as a man, accept the words in the bible to be the truth, above all else and in exclusion of all the Gods of past and present.


Your quote...
""And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like Moses whom the Lord knew face to face." Deuteronomy 34:10"

Does not explain how exactly God spoke to Moses. It doesn't explain how anybody knows about that except if Moses told them. Sort of the same way nobody knows about God talking to GWB, the pope, David Koresh, all men who have claimed the exact same thing at one time or another.

Forgive me if it appears to be past the point of ridiculous, but I fail to understand why the bible, which some say is a figurative explanation of history and other say is a literal connotation, and I say is about 2000 years too old for anybody to know for sure, reads as fact for you in support of the existence of God.

My search, is either to rule Gods existence as valid, or rule it out. If in doing either one can be achieved the other is naturally excluded, however I can find almost nothing scientific at all in the present state of religion, history, and God to convince me of the existence of God.

How do you know of the creation of Satan? Is this not a classic representation of an antagonist in the element of story which is prevalent in all of society's literature. Is and has there not always been conflict between people inside a community and a clear protagonist and antagonist relationship between them, good and bad, right and wrong, surely this would clearly have made its way into the teaching of morals in history.

There are plenty of stories of good and bad and of course the "bad" go to hell in the teaching. But are all people truly good or bad? I certainly think its much more complex than that. There also is a need for us to judge people as good or bad, courts and arbitrary judgments have always been a part of communities as a way to settle disputes.

I just find a lot of things in the bible and religious texts, as well as historical writing to be human nature rather then God nature. Certainly people in the past needed something to fear to comply in a society that couldn't spend the resources to police it like we can today. The fear of going to hell could keep anybody in line I would imagine.

Getting back to people talking to God. If you believe that Moses was face to face with God, how about George Bush, or David Koresh. Do either of these men qualify for your belief either? Would you write on about how David Koresh or George Bush heard and acted on his advice from God and changed the world the same way Moses or Jesus is supposed to have done? I assume you would not, but I don't know so I ask.

KFC POSTS:

No, God didn't create Satan for we know that everything He created was "good"...and there is nothing good about Satan. God created inumerable spirits called angels who were endowed with free will and a great many of them abused it. lost the grace of God and became wicked. They rebelled against God--with Lucifer as their leader. Michael, and the other angels who remained faithful to GOd fought against the rebellious angels, whose chief is now called Satan, or the devil and they were cast from Heaven down to Hell.

KFC POSTS:

Dan, KFC is absolutely correct in saying this. Yet your probing questions in reply #92 indicate a real search for answers, at times frustrating as that may be.

Reading Sacred Scripture has to be done with an openness, an open heart, like that of a child, for God speaks to us as a loving Father to His children. God isn't limited by time or space and He actually speaks to us when we are reading it through the very same words as those addressed to Moses, Abraham or to the prophets. Jesus speaks directly to us here as well in the here and now, just as truly as He spoke to the APostles 2,000 years ago.

God knows what's in our hearts and what we are searching for. He knew us when He was creating heaven and earth every hair on our head. It's an undescribable love and mystery that is beyond our himan understanding, yet just knowing this is enough to set us free.

For whatever reason, for happiness, enlightenment, when we are grieving, confused, or clear headed, that we are looking for life's answers, we can turn to a book for help, right? All the while the books author isn't aware of what we are doing. But when we read Sacred Scripture we dial God's number and He says, "Hello". The Word of God far from a dead book is living and effective and able to discern thoughts of the heart. This is the mystery and wonder of a loving God.

The fact that we have Sacred Scripture which is Divine Revelation is becasue God wanted to reveal something about Himself to us. It is also our story of salvation history. Through it GOd shows and communicates Himself and His eternal decisions of His will regarding the salvation of mankind.

God the beginning and the end of all things created each one of us for a purpose. There is nothing random about it. It's all according to God's most wise design. So we can "know" God from created reality by light of human reason.

The evidence you cite, is not from first hand sources, it is also hardly historically correct. There are plenty of stories that people feel perfectly acceptable taking as figurative rather then literal connotations of history. There are no words, directly from God in any of the texts or historical documents. Only those words and ideas passed down from one man/woman to another. In exactly the same way as all the religions, mythology or taken as valid are.

Now I am sure that you lose track of my answers to you. Here is what i said earlier. It has nothing to do with the texts:

"i think i said that before, but at the risk of repeating myself too many times, here it is:All the information and knowledge we have about this universe say one absolute thing: Nothing, Nothing at all exists by itself out of nothingness.everything we see or feel or detect have a cause behind it. This is the universe we are in. Same thing in the behavior of things in that universe. They go according to certain laws. we discovered some of them, others we still trying to. but the fact remains that there are laws which govern this universe. If we cant find anything to support the idea that something can exist on its own out of nothing, then we MUST answer this question: Who made this universe and these laws and caused them to exist?Everything we know about logic point to this: anything must be either a Creator, or a Creation. since the universe as we know it IS NOT A CREATOR (it never creates anything, it just keeps manipulating the SAME amount of matter and energy around) then it MUST BE A CREATION. and if so, then it must have a Creator. keep in mind that there is no other choice, it is a creator or a creation. like being a + or - charge there is no third option (remember neutral is an equal numbers of +'s and -'s). that is the way everything we know tells us. "

You completely ignored that. That is the logical deductive proof of His existence.

That's why I said that every word is written by God, not literally, but every word is meant to be there as coming from Him. Everyone of the sacred writers were the instruments of God. To repeat: When we say that SS is the very word of God, we don't mean that He actually wrote it Himself

I think you got my point and the facts exactly.

Then let's go one more step toward aknowledging reality.

God's own words must be extracted and kept separate from all other opinions/inspirations or wahtever you like to call them. There is a good reason for that. God's words are Holy and Sacred and must not be changed to accomodate anybody or anything.
God's words are the REFERENCE and the judge on all opinions and inspirations. Keeping them mixed with other writings causes a whole lot of doubt and confusion about the whole text.

The Qur'an doesn't fit in this category because it contains some biblical Judeo-Christian truth with error

That is exactly what i mean by we must have the REFERENCE to judge two equal texts. A text that claims that it only has God's words and it has been authenticated more than the OT or the NT and never been changed since it was written and verified by people who heard Mohammad himself recite it, separately and uniquely from any other of his sayings or anyone else's sayings, that texts have errors? compared to what?what is the bench mark to judge? God's own words or writings by others ABOUT God's words?

why would anyone considers Qura'an God's own words? the same reason that anyone considers the SS or many statements in the OT and the NT. it is only a matter of belief-bias (which is very understandable) that gives anyone a reason to deny its origin.

I provided many examples of what i said about the existence of others' words in OT and NT. from the texts themselves.

Now, look at the Qura'an and you will see no such evidence no matter how much you tried. I did, believe me. the text is solid, logical and contains its own proof of its devine origin. many people tried and i am sure you are aware of it. but no one was able to disbute its origin on factual basis. On belief-bias bases of course. Jews dont believe in the NT either but that dosnt deny jesus and the Ingil their devine origin.

Hi Dan:



Ok.....but that's not what you asked. You asked me this:



So I gave you my best answer. I believe it's very reliable. I can't help it if you don't like it. It's my answer.

Do you question all works of antiquity like you do the scriptures? Do you believe Homer wrote the Illiad? The history recorded in the Scriptures proves to be accurate. As far as we have been able to determine, the names, places and events mentioned in the Bible have been recorded accurately.

If one will judge the documents of scripture with the same standards or tests applied to any one of the Gk classics, the evidence overwhelmingly favors the scriptures. If a person contends that we have a reliable text of the classics, then he would be forced to admit we have a reliable text of the scriptures.

The NT for instance has far superior evidence for reliability than the classics, but it also is in better textual shape than the 37 plays of Shakespeare written in the 17th century AFTER the invention of printing.

Since I don't have a ton of time tonight...I'll leave you a link to peruse regarding this subject..and I'll get back to the rest of your questions later.

WWW Link

I don't see this in any version. What version are you referring? This is what 2:4 says:

I am using NEW RSV. and the statement " Another Account of the Creation" comes after 2:4. i said that already. this account starts at 2:5 by saying: "In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens ......"

Now you see what i mean? My version, your version ....etc. and each revised who knows how many times.

you can see this in their writings sort of a partnership between them and God. Like Luke for instance .....

KFC, i wish you dont say things like that about God. "parternership" with God???? Exulted HE above the need for any partenership. Do you realize by saying things like that you are minimizing HIM????? !!!!!!! HE doesnt need anyone to help HIM formulate His words. He asked us to explain them to others if we can, not claim that HE instructed us to write what we understand
then claim that it is HIS words. NO .... it is not his words. It is our understanding of HIS words. His words are in the originals but where are those now? we should not lose sight of that.

I absolutely believe that the words in that original are the same we are reading today. Absolutely. God is not just about revelation and illumination but also about preservation. God is in control

Existing texts dont indicate that they match the originals. Many versions, many interpretitions wrong translations ... etc. lets be factual and admit the obvious.

I am sure you read in many blogs and threads what people say about the things they read in the OT and NT. they are not inventing the words they read and honestly it gives a bad impression about God. both the OT and the NT present Him as a "someone" who is doing things in a casual way and acts as any other human does. That is not God, KFC. that is the impression that whoever wrote those texts gives about Him. It is not the same at all. critical minds realize that. belief-bias clouds the facts. I understand that. But HE warned against that. we have to differentiate between His own words and the words of others.

I don't believe TA that God would ALLOW his words to be corrupted. He is preserving them.

Again KFC? we established that not everything there IS HIS WORDS. how many examples do you need to acknowledge that? even lola, accepts that. He preserved HIS words not others understanding of them. His words were there, somehow, they got destroyed by people who had their own agenda.

History tells us a lot about what happened KFC. It is a great loss to us but His words are still there if you read what you see with a critical mind. You will recognize what He says from what others are saying.

again KFC, dont equate His own words to what you or I get as thoughts and inpirations. That what encourages all sorts of people to say that God talked to them. None of us are messengers or prophets. We cant say that what we feel or think is HIs words. It is an arrogance i can't imagine anyone who honestly believe in God will allow that.

Think ALoud posts:

"contains its own proof of divine origin"? Really, how so?

I just looked into the link KFC provided and clicked on Islam. This is what I pulled from the part under the Qur'an.

In the year 610 (believed to be the 26th of Ramadan), while in a cave on Mt. Hirah, which is now called Mount Jabal Nur, Muhammad said that the angel Gabriel appeared to him and commanded him to recite (96:1-19). From that point on, Muhammad claimed to have received revelations up to the time of his death, 23 years later in 632. In these encounters with the angel Gabriel, sometimes Muhammad would see the angel, other times he would only hear him, and at others he only heard the sound of a bell through which the words of the angel came.

What if Muhammad was a liar about the bizarre circumstances of encountering the angel Gabriel? After all, no one else in 23 years ever saw this occurence. By 610, Muhammad knew enough background of Judaism and Christianity to adequately come up with those parts of the Qur'an and he made up the rest as he went along. The Qur'an combines some Judeo/Christian truths, some heresies and the rest propagates Islam by threats, fire and sword. In all reality, and honesty, how can that be God's own words, His Revelation of Divine origin?

I mean the Qur'an reads like what it is: the dictates of an illiterate Arab, not the voice of an angel from God. For example, Islam acknowledges the closeness of God to man by saying that God is closer to man than his own jugular vein. Q 50:16.

Christianity's founder--Christ--was a prophet and martyr wh orefused to fight to save His life. Though the NT acknowledges that the Ot revelation is from God, it does not contain new commands to use violence, as Christianity was not to be the way that Judaism was.

Islam's founder--Mohammed---was a warlord who over his lifetime conquered the Arabian Peninsula. He "produced" the Qur'an which is filled with commands to use violence in the service of its religion and nation. As does Christianity, Islam views itself as a religion for all people. The problem is Islam's attitude is willing to employ violence on a massive scale.

Re: violence, the Qur'an says: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger (Mohammahed), nor acknowledge the religion of truth, from among the people of the Book (the Bible), until they pay the jizyah (tribute) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" Q 9:29. In other words, violence is to be used against Christians and Jews unless they are willing to pay a special tax and live in subjection to Muslims as second class citizens. For them, the choice is convert, die or live in subjection. You are trying to convince me that Q. 9:29 is of Divine origin? No sale here. I don't think so.


Someone told me of a book about Islam entitled, The Life and Religion of Mohammed, by a priest, Rev. J.L. Menezes, who lived and ministered among Muslims in India. In it, he explains why Mohammed couldn't possibly be a prophet and reveals the true source of his 'revelations'. He writes how even Mohammed's replies to his critics in the Qur'an are insufficient to refute the charge that he was a false prophet who fabricated revelations.

Fr. Menezes could be writing about today's Muslims terrorists when he explains that "Mohammad posed as the apostle of God, the seal of the prophets; as the destroyer of idolatry, as preacher of one true God, and the reformer of morals: while his life is marked by at least 14 marriages, including that to a 7 or 9 year old girl,
and great licentiousness, deeds of rapine, warfare, conquests, unmerciful bucheries, all the time invoking God's name to sanction his evil deeds propagating the dark world of Islam everywhere by fire and sword.

No, God didn't create Satan for we know that everything He created was "good"...and there is nothing good about Satan.

you see what I mean about taking "Others" words as His? if he created ONLY "good" so how did the "bad" exist? notice i did not ask where did it come form? i said how did it become an existence that other creations can do?

God created everything that exists in the universe: the good, the bad, the beautiful, the ugly, the decent the indecent ...etc.

Lola, KFC. Please watch what you say about Him. You two are talkingh about Him as if HE is someone with limited and normal capabilities. He is above all that. HE is encompassing everything and above it all.

What if Muhammad was a liar about the bizarre circumstances of encountering the angel Gabriel?

the same could be said about Moses and Jesus, Abraham and all the rest. the way you believe in any of them is the same.

the dictates of an illiterate Arab, not the voice of an angel from God. For example, Islam acknowledges the closeness of God to man by saying that God is closer to man than his own jugular vein. Q 50:16

and how do you know that Moses talked to God? or how Abraham recieved any revelations from Him.

And yes Qura'an says that. and no one objects to that. He is close to all His creations.

Re: violence, the Qur'an says: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger (Mohammahed), nor acknowledge the religion of truth, from among the people of the Book (the Bible), until they pay the jizyah (tribute) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" Q 9:29. In other words, violence is to be used against Christians and Jews unless they are willing to pay a special tax and live in subjection to Muslims as second class citizens. For them, the choice is convert, die or live in subjection. You are trying to convince me that Q. 9:29 is of Divine origin? No sale here. I don't think so.

Dont put your words in His words. that is what got the OT and NT mixed up in the first place. That is what Ben-Laden does. He justifyies his violence based on that. But Read that verse again. It is talking about those Jews and Christians WHO dont believe in Him, and in the day of judgement. It clearly say "from among the people of the book" not the people of the book. i am sure you realize the difference. Ignoring that difference made it possible for benladen to fool a whole lot of people.

Now again you can see the importance of having the Text original words.

I am surprised taht you just ignore that. even the translation makes it clear. not every jew or christian is subject to that rule of fighting. only those who dont believe in God or In the Last Day. it is obvious that some of those at the time did not believe in that. they just pretended i.e hypocrites and that is the main theme of that Surah.

You , I or ben laden can read Qura'an and say whatever we want. But others can read what we say and check it against the original and judge. By doing that the truth always comes out. His words are exact, accurate, intentional and mean what they say. And He says what He means. no confusion. Just read the text and see what He is talking about and you will never get confused.

Ignoring a word or misunderstanding it makes a big difference. You cant just ignore the word "from among". Clearly He is not talking about any general one from the people of the book. He identified whom He meant. and that was specific to the people there who were hypocrites and pretending to be Jews or Christians.

By the way in the begining of the same surah he said the same about the hypocrites from the non-believers of his tribe in Mecca. some pretended to be Muslims but they were hypocrites and they were spying on the Muslims. the same was for those pretended to be Jews and Christians but were non-believers spying for Quraish. They pretended that because the jews and christians of Madina were protected under the treaty with the Muslims.

Knowing the whole story and reading the whole Surah makes it clear that those verses apply ONLY to those Spies not to any nonbeliever nor any Jew or Christian. Other verses confirm that clearly in many many places.

huh? I don't believe God is limited at all. Where in the world did you get that idea?

I agree with you actually. He is above all.... period. "He is before ALL things and by him ALL things consist."

Someone told me of a book about Islam entitled, The Life and Religion of Mohammed, by a priest, Rev. J.L

what did you expect from a priest to say about that? that is why the original speaks for itself. if you like to know go to the source and study and judge for yourself without bias or prejudgement. that is what searching for the truth is all about.

Just remember they said that about all messengers and prophets including Moses, Jesus and even Abraham. nothing unusual about that. For God's sake, the OT says Lot slept with his daughters. He was a prophet and he does that? all suffered that from humans who have no regard or respect for God or His prophets and messengers. ooh dont forget what they say about Mary either. Nothing new in that.