Let's Think Together
Deceit ... of Citizens and Foreigners Alike
Published on January 3, 2008 By ThinkAloud In Politics
My niece who is an Assistant Professor of Political Studies has been working, since June 2007, on a paper for publication on "Deceit as a Tool in US Foreign Policy" . Last week she asked me to review her draft before she submits it for publication. I did and pointed out few points to her. One of these points was this: "not telling the whole truth to a foreign leader is not a deceit" especially if that leader does not support the US Government's policies regardless of whether those policies are right or wrong.

The US Government is not responsible for making sure that foreign leaders know everything they should know before they make their own decisions. The US is not a custodian of the world. The US Government is responsible for pursuing the best interest of its own Citizens not the interests of other countries. If the two coincide then great, if they don’t ... then we tell them what we think is best for us and that is not deceit if what we say is true. If it is not the whole truth ... then it is up to them to fill the gaps ... it is good enough that we didn’t lie. They can ask question and we should answer honestly.... but if they don’t ask we have no responsibility to educate them....

Or Do we?

That is what got me started on this article. .... Then things got worse in my mind.

This is not only happening in foreign policy ... it is happening in Domestic policies too ... here at home from our Government and the think tanks which guide and control its domestic policies.

The Foreign component deserves a separate article and there are many reasons to adopt a not-the-whole-truth policy with foreign leaders. But this article is about using the same attitude with the Citizens who elected the US government to Govern, supposedly, in their name.

The question is not only addressed to the elected officials but to every one involved in shaping or supporting these policies.

Is it legitimate to portray certain proposed ideas in a way that deceives the public and get them to agree to something that is really not what they think it is?

When dismantling the Social Security program is presented as "giving the people control over their own money" while in fact it will destroy the program and leaves great number of people with no (or vastly reduced) income after retirement …. Is that legitimate?

Every one knew that the minority who know a little about finance will be ok and may be do a little better while the majority who don’t know much about financial planning or how things work in the financial markets will be either worse off or lose their shirts in the process which negates the whole idea behind the program being a "Security" not an investment. It is an income insurance not an investment vehicle. There is the 401 K and IRA and other programs for investment ..... The SS program is not one of them.

But it was portrayed to the citizens as a better way of investment..... Was that legitimate?

When Medical Expenses savings accounts are portrayed as more economical for the individual than paying for health insurance which in fact it is for the minority who can afford paying for expensive private treatments while the majority will face a financial disaster if they need a serious operation or treatment..... Is that legitimate?

When Universal Health Care is portrayed as socialized medicine while in fact it is more efficient and less expensive for all than the current system which only benefits the Insurance Companies..... Is that legitimate?

When "getting the government off your back" is portrayed as less taxes while in fact it makes almost everyone pays much more in property taxes, college education, local services for maintaining roads and school buildings, ..Etc than what they save from Fed Taxes ... Is that legitimate?

When a program is intended to increase emissions of air pollutants and is called "Clear Skies" ... is that legitimate?

When a program results in mass exodus of manufacturing jobs from the country to foreign lands and portrayed as giving Businesses the freedom to operate where it is more efficient.... is that legitimate?

When deregulation of the communication industry results in more filth and violence on public airwaves and portrayed as less interference by government ... is that legitimate?

The examples are endless but that is enough to make the point and illustrates the dishonesty of the policies and the policy makers and supporters.

The first thing that comes to mind is this: if all that was legitimate why was it portrayed otherwise?

If destroying the SS program is the intent and they are convinced that it is the right policy ... why be dishonest about it?

If You want to save money for businesses by not giving employees health benefits and you think that is really better for businesses and employees alike..... Why lie about it?

If you want to relax the air pollution standards to save money for businesses why not say so?

No reason to keep asking the same question again and again....

Is it acceptable policy or politics to lie in order to achieve your goal?

Every citizen needs to think about that and be careful in swallowing what he/she is being fed. Many times it is dangerous for your health.

Comments (Page 2)
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on Jan 03, 2008

And Tax credits for relocating manufacturing plants is not an incentive to relocate outside the country? you need a proof that we lost most of our manufacturing base since 1980's?

No, I need something better than 7 degrees of freedom that exists between your statement and the facts.  Show me where it was a cause and effect.  But please be honest enough not to eliminate things like lower wages over seas, lower tax burdens (outside of tax credits - we are talking the foreign taxes) when doing your "proof".

Notice in my response I did not say you are wrong.  I said it was your OPINION.  That it is, and opinions do not require facts.  If you want to try to start throwing facts in here, do so honestly.  Do not just list your gripes as facts.  I can cherry pick the numbers too and show you how the reduction of Pirating has lead to global warming.  And the numbers are a lot stronger than anything you can produce.

You did not start this off with "here are some issues I have problems with", you started it off as "honesty is a forbidden policy" immediately branding anyone who disagrees with you as dishonest.  In vulgar circles, we just say liar, but you can euphamize it to "dishonest".

on Jan 03, 2008
SS IS balanced today. Yet you tell Ted it is not (in fact it is running a huge surplus).


Really? so what is all that fuss about it being a burden on the general budget. That was the whole idea behind that 2% private invetment choice .... they said it is broken, nonsutainable and gives people less ROI. now you say all that wasnt true?

The doom and gloom prophets keep saying the system is not sustainable.... yes it has a surplus now ... if they dont take it and squander it on other expenses but they dont have a separate acccount for it ..... and they keep saying it is not sustainable and benefits must be cut. All that are not facts?

well, someone is lying then for sure. and that is my point ..... let's all stop the lies. OK?

One thing for sure .... if they leave the system alone and have a separate account for it .... it is ok and no problem ...... but take money out and mix it with general budget ... then say it is not sustainable .... is the deceit that must stop.
on Jan 03, 2008
Thinkaloud, SS is running at a surplus, which is why Congress (yes, on both sides) likes to raid it for other programs.

SS isn't in trouble because it isn't bringing in enough money, it is in trouble because the Baby Boomers are retiring and there isn't enough workers to cover their SS benefits.

If you can't afford to retire, you don't. Retirement is not a right or an entitlement.
on Jan 03, 2008

Really? so what is all that fuss about it being a burden on the general budget. That was the whole idea behind that 2% private invetment choice .... they said it is broken, nonsutainable and gives people less ROI. now you say all that wasnt true?

Get your FACTS straight. From the CBO: http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=5530

Notice the lines.  See how revenues are exceeding expenses today?

Yet you say it is in arrears now.  Not even close.  It will be and that is why the need for reform.  Note reform.  Not dismantling it.

Now do you want a discussion on it, or to spout more "facts" that are not even opinion as they are dead wrong?

on Jan 03, 2008
but take money out and mix it with general budget


BTW - 2 points. It will not be ok on its own as it is.

And number 2, who mixed it in the first place? Hint: It was not a Bush (or even a Clinton).

There may be some lies and deceit from Bush, but a lot more from the opposition. Number 1 lie: It is a retirement account. No, it is a tax. If it is an account, why not let me direct where MY money (the money I put in) is invested? Sign a waiver if I lose it all? Damn Straight! You worried about "losing" yours? Put it into T-Bills. Unless the government goes belly up (in which case you dont have to worry about retirement) those are as secure as it gets (better than the ponzi scheme now).

And for the record, who is talking about the "lock Box" of social security? Look at the IOwa Caucus and the Democrat leadership in congress. Google the term. See how many times they used it.

No, the deceit here is that you bought into the lies, and then turned around and shopped this article based on those lies.
on Jan 03, 2008
ThinkAloud is writing abbpout spin and deliberate mis-information on behalf of our government. Last I looked, the JU right takes a dim view of spin, lying, and all that. Yet, here you are quibbling rather than looking at the spin itself. If we are addicted to spin as a governing body then why the press scecretaries, media centers, press kits, talking point distrubutors ad nauseum?
on Jan 03, 2008
if a rock is going to hit new york tomorrow. do you tell the people of new york causing panic, or do you just prepare for the clean up.


you prepare for panic and for clean up And tell the truth.





if you tell the truth more people may die in the panic than from the rock.
on Jan 03, 2008
me i would prepare for the clean up and not tell anyone why.
on Jan 03, 2008
and they all pay less and get better service


How is waiting weeks or months for a simple procedure "better" service?


on Jan 03, 2008
btw, ThinkAloud, I agree with the basic point of your article to a point. I think there are times when it is necessary to keep the facts from the general public. I also agree that it is abused.

I was just entertained that you made your point by using a little misinformation yourself. :~D
on Jan 03, 2008
It will be and that is why the need for reform. Note reform. Not dismantling it.


Doc, please stay on the point. That is exactly what i was talking about. it is not in trouble now, but the 2% option portrayed it as in trouble AND they said the cure was to make people invest in the market and that will solve the problem.

That was deceitful. The system is not in trouble, but it will be if you take those 2% out. that will dismantle it.

the point was and still is .... the policy was presented in a not truthful way. They wanted to get more money to the stock market .... and they didnt want to say that.

no one saw any benefit from that program except for people who know how to handle financial markets which is very small part of the working force. .

lets not go into semantics and concentrate on the main point.
on Jan 03, 2008
If you can't afford to retire, you don't. Retirement is not a right or an entitlement.


and you are against people having insuranceso they can retire? that is ok. just say so .... dont go and say it is better investment
on Jan 03, 2008
How is waiting weeks or months for a simple procedure "better" service?


not true. Why are you making it so difficult and confusing with those false claims. In fact we already have it now .... if you expand medicare to all with fees that cover its cost ..... things will be simple and we still have the same system. no insr comp in the middle. the Fed employees and the VA have that .... why cant the rest of us?

why eliminate the bargaining power for lower prescrp. costs? is that honest?

on Jan 03, 2008
There may be some lies and deceit from Bush, but a lot more from the opposition


and that makes it ok? that makes you defend the Bush lies?

I dont defend anyone's lies .....

bias is getting us no where .....
on Jan 03, 2008
SS is in trouble because we are aborting our future work force at an alarming rate while making medical advances which allow those of us lucky enough to be born already to remain alive through artificial means far longer than god, nature, or the Federal Government ever intended.


That is part of it too. But let's not go down on old folks that hard. yes, there are reasonable limits of course and we should not be sooo adamant about keeping people alive even if they were dead already.

and there are more ways to fix the system and make it more effecient.

the point is just dont fool people .... most of us are not very sophisticated to see the spin. it is too fast for most people.
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