btw, when I worked at the clinic, one complaint I heard from co workers in the break room was, "why do these people expect special treatment... just because they are veterans?".

TA,

We are not a dictatorship. The President does not have ultimate authority, nor should he. The responsibility for mobilizing an evacuation rested chiefly in the hands of Mayor Nagin. If Nagin needed extra assistance, he should have gone up the chain...first to the mayor, then the President.

I GUARANTEE you that if the US had mobilized National Guardsmen to NO and evacuated at gunpoint, you and everyone else left of center would be shouting about the "police state"...and if, God forbid, one minority had been shot in the process, no matter the cause, you'd be crying race war!

New Orleans was a mess all the way around. I will put culpability on Bush for his lack of response, but I will not blame him for the failure to evacuate. Bush told citizens to evacuate, as did Blanco and Nagin. That they didn't attempt to respond is hardly the government's fault.

ThinkAloud, don't even get me started on Emergency Management since you abviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Ok, now you present facts. Thank you. But you did not prove your point, only that your opinion is based upon more than talking points. But the truth is that the act of capitlization of expensing a move is not going to send jobs overseas. Expensing versus capitalization only means when the cost can be claimed, not that the cost can be claimed. If you have to spend a million dollars to upgrade a plant in one location versus half that in another, you would be a fool to not move it. So the bad boy here is not the tax law you claim, but the fact that the CEOs would be fools to pay a million dollars (and probably liable due to our litigious society) when they could pay half that.

And guess what? Many did not move over seas. States are always bidding on new plants by offering incentives for the company to relocate. And suceeding. The cost of cement and steel is pretty much the same in Michigan as it is in Kentucky, so what would entice a company to move?

Money. tax incentives, and lower taxes. Lowering taxes is not going to cause a flight of capital. being arrogant about the fact that companies are not multi-national will cause it however.

As for your 3-1 example, I am sure in some instances that may be true. Hardly in most. That is why there are still over 100 million jobs here in this company. Because some things can be done more efficiently than in other countries due to (wait for it) - the training and education of the local work force. However, when that training and education is offset by greatly lower labor costs (so that you can hire 3 to do the job of 1) it again becomes more economical to move it.

But wait! If all these jobs have gone overseas, why is the investment in some areas increased here in the states? While we have fewer autoplants owned by the big 3, we have a lot more plants in the US than before owned by - shock! - Toyota, Honda, and other foreign companies. Why? It is cheaper to make the stuff here, than to ship it here. Labor costs do not play a big part as they offset for the most part.

Where they do not (making lead based toys comes to mind), the jobs move.

Now, I have given some facts (by no means all or in any way comprehensive) and you have given some, and we have reached 2 different opinions. Are you lying? Am I lying? I think not. And that goes back to your title and original contention. You did not start this out as a discusion of domestic versus foreign (and indeed that is just one plank of your article), but as lies, deceit and more lies. Which they are not.

Or the blame is being placed on the wrong person/administration. Does the administration "tell" us the whole truth? Hardly. Not out of deceit, but out of the fact that most do not understand it, and only listen to a 30 second sound byte. But the facts are out there, for the educated to learn and edcuate themselves on.

Do you want me to explain to you how that sentence of yours got to this site? Or are you merely content that it did when you typed it at the keyboard? Your claim is that I am lying to you when I do not explain all the communication protocols needed to connect your computer to this site, and then explain how the computer translates your input into output. When I am merely choosing not to go into that level of detail - a level that only a handful of people would understand or care about - just to tell you to press the A key on your keyboard to have it appear here.

But on other points, you took the talking points of one side, and having failed to do any research on them whatsoever, swallowed them hook line and sinker and called someone a liar. yet you have danced around the crucial point that could even start a discussion on the issue, never addressing it, just calling those who do not agree with liars. When in fact, as I indicated, all are probably not telling the whole truth, but some are out right lying - and it is not this administration.

Of course the issue is SS, and its reform. Do you have a 401k, or an IRA? Did you just dump money into it and let John P. Broker do with it as he wants with no accountabilty to you? If so, does that money even exist now?

Show me the account where your money is in SS. You cant. It does not exist. It is broken. It was patched in the 80s, but even then everyone at that time said it was just a patch and that eventually it would need more work. Everyone except the ones lying to you now - Hillary, Edwards and Pelosi come to mind in that category.

The first thing before any discussion (or allegations of dishonesty) can be had on the SS issue is to define WHAT SS is. If it is just another government tax, then a tax redirection (ala having YOU decided what to do with YOUR money) is probably going to be bad. not because it will bankrupt the system (the system is doing that all by itself), but because it will lay bare the fact that SS is a ponzi scheme and not your money, but just a failed concept that was bankrupt by congress over the last 50 years. (it did not start out paying all those disability and death benefits - it was just a retirement supplement).

But I am getting to far into an issue that is not germaine to your article yet and can be an article upon itself. I will bring back this lengthy essay to the point by saying that you announced deceit based upon faulty data - or more specifically talking points. You jumped to a conclusion - a conclusion not supported by any facts in the article (see, you did provide some in the comments, but you stated your conclusion in the article with none). And that is what I called you on. If you want to spout the talking points of one side, that is indeed your right. As it is mine to call you on them and tell you that they are bunch of BS.

Dont get your panties in a twist just because not everyone accepts those talking points without thinking. As most did not here. Next time, question those talking points. The talking points are for the lazy who do not want to or have the capabilty to research issues further. They make good campaign rhetoric, but lousy discussion points because they are inherantly flawed - regardless of who makes them.

THINK ALOUD POSTS:
We need to fix a lot of things. Washington is the first and all other State Capitals to follow.... we have a big mess ....

True.

But why?

It's not Bush's tax cuts....they are helping keeping the economy rolling.

Rather, it's municipal, state and federal government over spending, waste and fraud ...and entitlement programs are a big part of it.

Rather, it's municipal, state and federal government over spending, waste and fraud ...and entitlement programs are a big part of it.

Oh so true.

Dont get your panties in a twist just because not everyone accepts those talking points without thinking

What talking points Doc? I dont even hear anyone talking about that anywhere from the Left or the Right. That is why i wrote this article. You and I can argue till the cows come home but the facts on the ground face us every day on the ground. Manufacturing Jobs migrated already and God knows how can we get them back. if you think this is a talking point .. then i really cant help but say you are not looking. Yes many investments are still being done here, but that is not the question .... what kind of jobs these investment provide .... mostly service jobs with wages less than 50% of manufacturing jobs.

If we bury our heads in the sand we are not going to see anything .... like we doing now regarding farm jobs. Because the fuss about illegal workers ,,,, farmers start moving their operation across the border ..... if we are not careful and solve this problem, soon we will be getting our food from other countries like we doing now with our industrial needs. ..... Is that the way to go Doc?

All for the sake of making more money or because we oppose many foreign workers?

Money is not everything Doc. producing our industrial needs and our food at home is much more important and vital to our own security than making few billions more in profits.

I am just surprised that you are not recognizing the enormity of the loss of manufacturing jobs and basic industries to other countries. It is very serious Doc. That is not a talking points of any one and THAT makes me upset even more. Do you hear anyone talking about it? I wish it was a talking point of someone.

you just answered your own question.

What talking points Doc?

The facts are not what you were listing.  You were listing the talking points.  The Jobs going over seas is a fact.  the reasons why (and your spin on the blame) are the talking points since none of that is Fact, just conjecture.

But I will add, you like to jump around.  I appologize for the long post.  It should have been an article unto itself, but the problem with a long post on that is you jumble it to estract a debating point that was not made or even insinuated.  It would be best to take each issue as a response onto itself and that is why I have not commented on every one of your points as that would be way to long.

I am just surprised that you are not recognizing the enormity of the loss of manufacturing jobs and basic industries to other countries.

Recognize?  I recognize global warming.  What I do not recognize is that man is causing it.  Likewise I recognize that manufacturing has gone over seas.  What I do not recognize, and perhaps will get into an article on why I do not, is your reasoning.  The fact is that this nation was founded as an agrarian one.  Why are you not lamenting the loss of farming jobs?  before we were industrialized, we were agrarian.  Yet when we "lost" farm jobs, the nation did not collapse and people found other jobs - just as they have done today.  Our Unemployment stands today at 5% (just bumped too), so that means all those "jobs" lost to overseas must have been accompanied by a mass migration according to your logic in order to keep the unemployment rate so low.

It has not, now has it?  So perhaps while the fact that manufacturing jobs have gone overseas, your opinion on the why and also on the impending doom is not supported by reality.

No where have I denied the fact that manufacturing jobs have gone over seas.  I fail to see how you can leap to such an erroneous conclusion.

Why are you not lamenting the loss of farming jobs

i did Doc. didnt you read it?

It's not Bush's tax cuts....they are helping keeping the economy rolling.Rather, it's municipal, state and federal government over spending, waste and fraud ...and entitlement programs are a big part of it.

it is superfecial tax cuts for most people Lula. and waste and fraud is not going to stop as a result of tax cuts.

Fed and State politicians alike waste money regardless. In fact making people pay more in state and local taxes give these local politicians more to waste from. In washington, the tax cuts doesnt affect their waste at all ...... it is still big enough for them to waste as before the tax cuts.

Stopping the waste and corruption is what we have to do and talk about .... when we do that ... Tax cuts and even elimination will be natural and easy to do.

the Gov wastes money and the politicians squander more money than any program including Defense spending.

If we concentrate on that we will be in much much better state than we are now.

i should revise my statement about honesty and the rock hitting new York.


if i felt that more people would survive through the panic then i would tell them to get out of town now.


however if i felt that more people would survive by not knowing i would not say anything.

Our Unemployment stands today at 5% (just bumped too), so that means all those "jobs" lost to overseas must have been accompanied by a mass migration according to your logic in order to keep the unemployment rate so low.

you missing the point completely. Yes industrial jobs were replaced by other types of jobs. But what type did we get to replace the lost ones? all service and low payment jobs. In addition, we lost our industial base. That is dangerous and you cant put a cost on it.

you are the one who diverted the discussion to this issue. My point was the Reagan policy resulted in the loss of industrial jobs and base not whether it was good or bad. but that was never mentioned when the policy was introduced. that is my main point.

You still saying that loss is not due to those policies and say it just "conjecture" even after i showed you there were no other reasons for that loss. It is not labor cost as most people believe .... it is the tax policy ..... it is not even the environmental regulations ..... you may not believe it but it is a hard and documented fact. It is not possible for me to show the Excell documents that actually document that proof. it is business documents and should not be disclosed.

what is more, and i dont know if you are aware of that or not, those plants we built overseas face major problems in getting some of their materials that were available here. getting them from here to there is a major problem and wastes time and money .... all in all you see that the only benefit of doing bus. over there is the Tax policy.

Actually, TA, with the impending retirement of the baby boomers, we face a pretty severe labor crisis in this country. Because we've aborted the next generation of workers, and because of increasing demands for health care professionals, we will soon be hard pressed to provide the labor for the jobs we HAVE.

I have very mixed feelings on outsourcing. On one hand, we're all citizens of the world and people in other countries need jobs, too. On the other hand, there are problems for some of the very reasons you cite.

Thaink ALoud writes:

Businesses should be able to decide whether or not they want to offer employee health benefits...but that's no longer the case in many states.

Some governors, with and without state legislators approval, are imposing instructions to business owners to provide them.