Let's Think Together
Deceit ... of Citizens and Foreigners Alike
Published on January 3, 2008 By ThinkAloud In Politics
My niece who is an Assistant Professor of Political Studies has been working, since June 2007, on a paper for publication on "Deceit as a Tool in US Foreign Policy" . Last week she asked me to review her draft before she submits it for publication. I did and pointed out few points to her. One of these points was this: "not telling the whole truth to a foreign leader is not a deceit" especially if that leader does not support the US Government's policies regardless of whether those policies are right or wrong.

The US Government is not responsible for making sure that foreign leaders know everything they should know before they make their own decisions. The US is not a custodian of the world. The US Government is responsible for pursuing the best interest of its own Citizens not the interests of other countries. If the two coincide then great, if they don’t ... then we tell them what we think is best for us and that is not deceit if what we say is true. If it is not the whole truth ... then it is up to them to fill the gaps ... it is good enough that we didn’t lie. They can ask question and we should answer honestly.... but if they don’t ask we have no responsibility to educate them....

Or Do we?

That is what got me started on this article. .... Then things got worse in my mind.

This is not only happening in foreign policy ... it is happening in Domestic policies too ... here at home from our Government and the think tanks which guide and control its domestic policies.

The Foreign component deserves a separate article and there are many reasons to adopt a not-the-whole-truth policy with foreign leaders. But this article is about using the same attitude with the Citizens who elected the US government to Govern, supposedly, in their name.

The question is not only addressed to the elected officials but to every one involved in shaping or supporting these policies.

Is it legitimate to portray certain proposed ideas in a way that deceives the public and get them to agree to something that is really not what they think it is?

When dismantling the Social Security program is presented as "giving the people control over their own money" while in fact it will destroy the program and leaves great number of people with no (or vastly reduced) income after retirement …. Is that legitimate?

Every one knew that the minority who know a little about finance will be ok and may be do a little better while the majority who don’t know much about financial planning or how things work in the financial markets will be either worse off or lose their shirts in the process which negates the whole idea behind the program being a "Security" not an investment. It is an income insurance not an investment vehicle. There is the 401 K and IRA and other programs for investment ..... The SS program is not one of them.

But it was portrayed to the citizens as a better way of investment..... Was that legitimate?

When Medical Expenses savings accounts are portrayed as more economical for the individual than paying for health insurance which in fact it is for the minority who can afford paying for expensive private treatments while the majority will face a financial disaster if they need a serious operation or treatment..... Is that legitimate?

When Universal Health Care is portrayed as socialized medicine while in fact it is more efficient and less expensive for all than the current system which only benefits the Insurance Companies..... Is that legitimate?

When "getting the government off your back" is portrayed as less taxes while in fact it makes almost everyone pays much more in property taxes, college education, local services for maintaining roads and school buildings, ..Etc than what they save from Fed Taxes ... Is that legitimate?

When a program is intended to increase emissions of air pollutants and is called "Clear Skies" ... is that legitimate?

When a program results in mass exodus of manufacturing jobs from the country to foreign lands and portrayed as giving Businesses the freedom to operate where it is more efficient.... is that legitimate?

When deregulation of the communication industry results in more filth and violence on public airwaves and portrayed as less interference by government ... is that legitimate?

The examples are endless but that is enough to make the point and illustrates the dishonesty of the policies and the policy makers and supporters.

The first thing that comes to mind is this: if all that was legitimate why was it portrayed otherwise?

If destroying the SS program is the intent and they are convinced that it is the right policy ... why be dishonest about it?

If You want to save money for businesses by not giving employees health benefits and you think that is really better for businesses and employees alike..... Why lie about it?

If you want to relax the air pollution standards to save money for businesses why not say so?

No reason to keep asking the same question again and again....

Is it acceptable policy or politics to lie in order to achieve your goal?

Every citizen needs to think about that and be careful in swallowing what he/she is being fed. Many times it is dangerous for your health.

Comments (Page 3)
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on Jan 03, 2008
Yet, here you are quibbling rather than looking at the spin itself.


thanks a lot. the semantics and quibbling are killing the issue.

Thanks again.
on Jan 03, 2008
Why are you making it so difficult and confusing with those false claims.


Nothing false at all.  You should go read about the problems with government run healthcare. 




on Jan 03, 2008
SS is in trouble



is really in trouble because people aren't dieing by 65. when that age was picked. life expectancy was 50?.
on Jan 03, 2008
I was just entertained that you made your point by using a little misinformation yourself. :~D


very funny Ted. That is ok. But please tell me what misinformation did i use?

All doc's and Gid's arguements are about details and not the main point. what facts that I used that are not correct?

I will correct them if they are really false. please be specific. Thanks
on Jan 03, 2008
is really in trouble because people aren't dieing by 65. when that age was picked. life expectancy was 50?.


comon daniel .... is the reason important? if it is in trouble ..... it is in trouble .... so why make it worse? or if you want to dismantle it .... then say so..... no spin ...ok?
on Jan 03, 2008
me i would prepare for the clean up and not tell anyone why.


That is not why they elected you. You think you are better judge than they are in preparing for that? if you tell them , they may tell you how to do it better and safer.
on Jan 03, 2008
Show me where it was a cause and effect. But please be honest enough not to eliminate things like lower wages over seas, lower tax burdens (outside of tax credits - we are talking the foreign taxes) when doing your "proof".


I am telling you what i participated in Doc. It is not a matter of true or false here. I relocated plants to China, Philipines and Saudia Arabia.

I didnt want to make this a lesson in project management and execution Doc. But you force me to. Ok , here are the details:

The Reagan tax policies introduced TWO factors:

1- Cost of dismantling old plants could be capitalized .... not expensed as it used to be
2- 20% of New Capital expenses (regardless of where they are) could be claimed as tax credits.

Old plants n the US at the time that needed upgrade became suddenly uneconomical to fix and upgrade because:
a- the cost of upgrade is not capitalized
b-the cost of dismantling is capitalized
c-the cost of both dismantling and of the new plant are qualified for the 20% tax credit.

Now what kind of stupid CEO will not take advantage of that?

and since location is not a creterion for the tax credit .... then why not go to where they can easily hide the profits.

as for the lower labor cost .... i have news for you

in the 3 locations i mentioned above the fact was that any job that would be done here by one person needed 3 or 4 people to do it in the same time .... not only that .... it is done at a lower quality.

by adding the cost of extra labor and the low yield of QC approved products .... it comes out very close to the labor cost in the US. these were hard nosed numbers .... but the capital costs and the lower taxes (because of locations) made it almost impossible to stay in the US.

One plant cost was $1 Billion. add to that about 100 million to dismantle/clean-up existing facility and you have $1.1B.

You know how much TAX CREDIT that means? it is $220 million TAX savings.

This has been going on fro the last 25 years ..... that how the manufacturing base disappeared from the USA. what a loss???

Doc, for your information every single program I am defending is really against my own immediate personal interest . and most of the programs i am against are actually would be in my immediate personal interests. Do you really think I would falsify data to do that? you think I am crazy or something?

But seeing plants close and go overseas is painful ..... and destructive to our country's National security. Do you knw where do we get the steel for manufacturing our military equipment nowadays? Japan, Korea, and Europe ...etc.

and where do we get the dirty basic chemicals? India and Philippines ...etc.

is that really good for our national security? we spend billions on military efforts to guard the traffic of these basic materials ....

and why is that? because it makes more money for the companies?????? is that a good reason?

these are the facts Doc. I am not just talking out of bias ... it is facts i knew first hand.

you can believe it or not ... but these are the facts as i participated in making them materialize.


on Jan 03, 2008
comon daniel .... is the reason important? if it is in trouble ..... it is in trouble .... so why make it worse? or if you want to dismantle it .... then say so..... no spin ...ok?


i did not spin anything. when they started SS they didn't expect most people to be living off of it for 10 years. why do you think that the ones in charge of it are talking about raising the age to 75.
on Jan 03, 2008
That is not why they elected you. You think you are better judge than they are in preparing for that? if you tell them , they may tell you how to do it better and safer.




right what happened in new Orleans and they had a week to prepare and get out. bush told them 3 days to get everyone out. but they didn't do that. they left the poor and the crooks bottled up in a football doom with no police to protect the poor.
on Jan 03, 2008
right what happened in new Orleans and they had a week to prepare and get out. bush told them 3 days to get everyone out. but they didn't do that. they left the poor and the crooks bottled up in a football doom with no police to protect the poor


Of course you know he is the chief executive, right?

did he follow up on his orders? if i did that in any of the projects i manage i will be on my butt in the street next day ... not next week. And i have seen that happen .... to my boss. Honest. One morning i came in and said Good morning ... he said what is good about it?

I was shocked? and you know why he was fired .... $60K overrun in a project following a disasterous start-up for a new plant. they didnt fire the engineers who were supposed to do the job right ... they fired the top guy because he didnt catch the problem in time

but sadly you give W excuses. yes, they all fooled around and made a big mess ... but where was he? his men on site to see if the big-man's orders are being carried out ... and report back to him ... where were they?

let's not kid ourselves Daniel ..... ok?


As for SS, lets not argue about why it is introuble .... my point was this: if the intent was that eliminate it for any reason.... just say so. That was not what they said ..... that is the point.
on Jan 04, 2008
come on it was the major and governers jobs to get those people out.

the major refused to use the 1000 buses that he had available. he also refused Amtrak's offer to pull trains down there and get everyone out. you democrats have got to stop blaming bush. when it was the democrat major and the democrat Governor who didn't do their jobs.
on Jan 04, 2008
but sadly you give W excuses. yes, they all fooled around and made a big mess ... but where was he? his men on site to see if the big-man's orders are being carried out ... and report back to him ... where were they?



it wasn't his job. his job does not include telling governers and majors what to do. he shouldn't have had to tell them to get everyone out. they should have just done it. it was their job not his.
on Jan 04, 2008
it wasn't his job.


ok Daniel .... it is not his job. I am sorry i thought it was since he is the president. I guess i am wrong. sorry daniel. but if it wasnt his job, why did he give orders?

never mind. he was just joking ... i know.
on Jan 04, 2008
why did he give orders?


he over stepped his job when he did.


now tell me why did the major turn down the amtrak offer.
on Jan 04, 2008

ThinkAloud:

very funny Ted. That is ok. But please tell me what misinformation did i use?

I already did.

As far as the VA though, I've had the misfortune of being a "patient" at 3 major VA hospitals and I worked at a VA clinic for awhile.

In the new employee orientation they told us that their goal is to make the veterans the #1 lobby group for the VA healthcare system.  The reality doesn't meet the stated goal.  I am 100% for dumping the entire VA hospital system in favor of using the money to cover us going to local facilities.

Have you ever had to drive 4 hours to get your wrists X-Rayed?  I have.  In another situation, I got kidney stones.  The VA said they would cover my ER visit, but all follow up care would have to be done at the Salt Lake City VA Hospital (3 hours away).  The thing was though, kidney stones aren't an inpatient situation.  So I had to either take the 6 hour drive every few days, or find a place to stay around Salt Lake.  Fortunately, I'm from that area, so i have plenty of family to stay with.  Since it took me three weeks to pass the little sucker, it also cost me an entire year of school.  It would have just cost me that semester, but the Paramedic program only runs specific classes every semester, so I had to wait until the next year and join the next class tdo finish.

Do you want to know what my VA rep said about that?  Well, we're covering the costs, so you shouldn't worry about that.

The VA medical system sucks and should NEVER be used as a model for any medical system to follow.

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