Let's Think Together
How do they know it was God speaking to them?
Published on July 19, 2007 By ThinkAloud In Religion
Recently an amazing theme started to appear in more than few of JU's postings. That is: God speaking with the authors of those postings, or so they claim. It seems that it is very fashionable nowadays to claim that what you say was according to what God told you during a "personal" speaking session with Him.

I honestly dont know what that means. In all God's messages to humanity, through His Messengers and Prophets, He said He chose those few people to convey His message to Humanity in general. He never said that He speaks to individual people privately to convey a personal message regarding those individuals and regarding them alone. The messages that were conveyed by those Messengers and Prophets were clear and specific and contain major, MAJOR, ideology and belief system. Essentially it was the Same Ideology and belief system with variations not very significant and it was intended to be delivered to all humanity not to be personal and specific to a certain individual.

so how do these people now claim that He, God, speaks to them? Messengers and Prophets of old always had what convinced people that they were REALLY getting what they say from God. They had certain qualities and capabilities no human can attain on his own. But these later-day- (i don’t even know what to call them now) have nothing meaningful to say except rehashing ideas and opinions shared and said by many other humans who never claimed that God talks to them.

GWB of course is the most famous Later-day-whatever. He said that Higher Authority told him to invade Iraq. As if this was something no one else thought of or desired before him. He forgot that his "Big Idea" was really old, as old as 1991 or even before and more sane people rejected it for its obvious dangers and wishful thinking.

Others do similar things. The prince of darkness (i.e. Robert D. Novak) recently claimed that he converted to Christianity after the HS told him so. Posts on JU are full of that kind of claims i.e. God or the HS is talking to people and told them what to do or say.

Again, how in the world do they know it was God? As far as I know God says if you want to talk to me, pray. If you want me to talk to you, read what I told my Messengers and Prophets to convey to you.

In other words unless someone claims that he/she is a prophet or a messenger he/she has no right whatsoever to say that God was talking to them. To claim otherwise is just simple arrogance and pretentious and they should really stop that. It is very silly and foolish. It shows and they just don’t see or feel it.

I just wanted to tell them all Stop it. Don’t use His name in vain to validate your brain's product (if that is where it is coming from).

Comments (Page 8)
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on Aug 02, 2007
Again KFC? we established that not everything there IS HIS WORDS. how many examples do you need to acknowledge that?


I believe quite thoroughly as I have studied quite extensively that in the original Hebrew and Greek that the scriptures we hold today are completely the word of God.

KFC, i wish you dont say things like that about God. "parternership" with God???? Exulted HE above the need for any partenership. Do you realize by saying things like that you are minimizing HIM????? !!!!!!!


First of all I don't mean it the way you're taking it. Second of all the scriptures are full of.... those that are HIS are the "Bride of Christ." Third of all Christ said:

"Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knows not what his lord does but I have called you friends for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known to you." John 15:15

Correct me if I'm wrong TA (I haven't read every response here) but you're coming from a mostly or mainly Muslim mindset which doesn't allow for a personal relationship with the God of the universe such as I just laid out here. God as our loving Father is a concept that is not one that the Muslims can accept.

again KFC, dont equate His own words to what you or I get as thoughts and inpirations.


I don't. Any word I hear from God via the avenues I mentioned HAVE TO have their basis in the scripture. If it's not there....it's not from God. God doesn't contradict his own words. For instance, someone may say that God is leading or telling them to divorce their husband. I know better. God says...I hate divorce. I would tell that person they are misrepresenting God.

Another Account of the Creation" comes after 2:4. i said that already. this account starts at 2:5 by saying: "In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens ......"


no,no,no, TA...I know what you're talking about now....this is a common mistake. Read it again. From 2:4 on you are reading a topical focus. The first part of the creation was chronological. It's the same thing but the focus is different. Scripture does this from time to time.

My heading before 2:4 reads "The beginnings of Man and Woman." After the whole plan of creation was laid out, the writer (Moses) now returns to focus on man alone. It's not two accounts.


on Aug 02, 2007
I don't believe God is limited at all. Where in the world did you get that idea?


Sorry KFC if i thought you also think He did not Create Satan.
on Aug 02, 2007
Lot slept with his daughters. He was a prophet and he does that?


For crying out Loud TA...we've been over this before. LOT WAS NOT A PROPHET. Show me where he was a prophet.

Where are you getting this? It's a lie.



on Aug 02, 2007
Sorry KFC if i thought you also think He did not Create Satan.


No, I agree he did create Satan. I said so when I said this is one of the why's we don't understand....why did he create Satan?

I believe Lula is right when she said all was good at creation, but he created his creatures to have "freewill" and Satan, aka Lucifer CHOSE to rebell against God thus introducing sin to the world. But God created him nonetheless.

on Aug 02, 2007
Correct me if I'm wrong TA (I haven't read every response here) but you're coming from a mostly or mainly Muslim mindset which doesn't allow for a personal relationship with the God of the universe such as I just laid out here


Muslims' mindset actually emphasizes that PERSONAL relationship to a great extent. But not to the point that He is Humanized. that is the difference.

...I know what you're talking about now....this is a common mistake. Read it again. From 2:4 on you are reading a topical focus. The first part of the creation was chronological. It's the same thing but the focus is different. Scripture does this from time to time.


It is not a mistake. and yes it is the same thing. but the fact that someone writes "Another Account of the Creation" to emphasize something is proof that this is someone writing what was his understanding of God's actual words.

we've been over this before. LOT WAS NOT A PROPHET. Show me where he was a prophet. Where are you getting this? It's a lie.


Read Gen 18:16 to 19:29 KFC. clearly Abraham, asked God to spare Lot and from 19:1 to 19:29 it is clear that the angels went there and God blessed Lot and his family and saved them from destruction. God does not send His angels just to any body KFC. Lot was a prophet. 19:30 is a disgrace to a man who was the host of God's angels and Abraham's companion and God's messenger to that city that was destroyed. Read 19:9 these people objected to him coming to them and acting as a judge.

You ignore what you read KFC so you can say evrything in the OT and NT is god's words. Dont ingnore the facts. and use your mind to see what these texts are.
on Aug 02, 2007
...
on Aug 02, 2007
God... sends his angels to care for whoever he wants, prophet or not. Prophets are the ones who often say, God says this, or God said to me that, in the Bible. Where does Lot say that?

I believe God sends his angels to watch over me, KFC, my boys, my wife, KFC's family, etc... I'm certainly not a prophet.
on Aug 02, 2007
Read Gen 18:16 to 19:29 KFC. clearly Abraham, asked God to spare Lot and from 19:1 to 19:29 it is clear that the angels went there and God blessed Lot and his family and saved them from destruction. God does not send His angels just to any body KFC. Lot was a prophet. 19:30 is a disgrace to a man who was the host of God's angels and Abraham's companion and God's messenger to that city that was destroyed. Read 19:9 these people objected to him coming to them and acting as a judge.


This is ridiculous. So you're saying because God resued Lot..he was a prophet? Some logic there...NOT He rescued Rahab the prostitute also...does that mean she was a prophet?

You have failed to show me where he was called a prophet. You can't because he wasn't.

[quote]You ignore what you read KFC so you can say evrything in the OT and NT is god's words. Dont ingnore the facts. and use your mind to see what these texts are.[/quote

I don't ignore anything nor do I ignore facts. In fact it's looking a whole lot like you're making up facts to me to suit your belief system.

Believe what you want TA.







on Aug 02, 2007
KFC POSTS:
No, I agree he did create Satan. I said so when I said this is one of the why's we don't understand....why did he create Satan?

I believe Lula is right when she said all was good at creation, but he created his creatures to have "freewill" and Satan, aka Lucifer CHOSE to rebell against God thus introducing sin to the world. But God created him nonetheless.


God created the angels, including Lucifer and they were good. They became bad by their own fault. God didn't create Satan as Satan, rather He created a good angel, Lucifer. God did not create the devil but a pure angelic spirit (Isaias 14:12) who out of pure malice and pride rebelled against Him and was condemned to Hell with the other angels he seduced. St.Luke 10:18; St.Jude 1:6; 2St. Peter2:4; Apoc. 12:7-9.

on Aug 02, 2007
THINKALOUD POSTS:
Read Gen 18:16 to 19:29 KFC. clearly Abraham, asked God to spare Lot and from 19:1 to 19:29 it is clear that the angels went there and God blessed Lot and his family and saved them from destruction. God does not send His angels just to any body KFC. Lot was a prophet. 19:30 is a disgrace to a man who was the host of God's angels and Abraham's companion and God's messenger to that city that was destroyed. Read 19:9 these people objected to him coming to them and acting as a judge.


ThinkAloud,

You write: God does not send His angels just to any body KFC. Lot was a prophet.

God didn't send His angels to Lot. He sent them to destroy the city. When the angels got there Lot was hospitable to them by inviting them into his house. Many interpretate this as the God rewarding Lot for his hospitality to the angels.

Just because we read that angels appeared to men, does not make that man a prophet. There are no references to Lot as a prophet. You may be confusing him with Abraham becasue several of the passages involving Lot are mingled with Abraham's episodes in Genesis 19. ...(or simply connecting what you believe of Mohammed's claim that the angel Gabriel appeared to him and voila, he's a prophet to be the same as with Lot).

Lot's selfishness is contrasted with Abraham's magnanimity in the partition of the land. 13: 5-13. When God was displeased with Sodom, Lot, THROUGH ABRAHAM'S INTERCESSION, is adjudged the city's only just man.

ThinkALoud, you write: "it is clear that the angels went there and God blessed Lot and his family and saved them from destruction."

Yes, it's true that after being warned by God's angels, Lot escaped the destruction of Sodom with his wife and 2 daughters. Here he is contrasted favorably while his intended sons-in-law perish in disbelief and his wife's disobedience destroys her. Later, his 2 daughters provide a popular disparaging etiology of the Moabites and Ammonites whose ancestor Lot is reckoned to be. 19:30-38.
on Aug 02, 2007
KFC POSTS:
My heading before 2:4 reads "The beginnings of Man and Woman." After the whole plan of creation was laid out, the writer (Moses) now returns to focus on man alone. It's not two accounts.


It's as you say, KFC, Genesis 1 is the story of the whole plan of Creation including that of the creation of the man and Genesis 2 builds on that and tells of the creation of the woman.
on Aug 03, 2007
LULA POSTS:
Re: violence, the Qur'an says: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger (Mohammahed), nor acknowledge the religion of truth, from among the people of the Book (the Bible), until they pay the jizyah (tribute) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" Q 9:29. In other words, violence is to be used against Christians and Jews unless they are willing to pay a special tax and live in subjection to Muslims as second class citizens. For them, the choice is convert, die or live in subjection. You are trying to convince me that Q. 9:29 is of Divine origin? No sale here. I don't think so.


THINKALOUD POSTS:

Dont put your words in His words. that is what got the OT and NT mixed up in the first place. That is what Ben-Laden does. He justifyies his violence based on that. But Read that verse again. It is talking about those Jews and Christians WHO dont believe in Him, and in the day of judgement. It clearly say "from among the people of the book" not the people of the book. i am sure you realize the difference. Ignoring that difference made it possible for benladen to fool a whole lot of people.


ThinkALoud,

First, so far from this discussion I've learned that when Muslims and non-Muslim apologists say that the Qur'an is the Word of God, they don't mean the same thing that Christians mean when they say Sacred Scripture is the Word of God.

I get it that you seemingly believe that God dictated every word of the Qur'an to Mohammed through the angel Gabriel and that God Himself is the only speaker throughout the Qur'an.

Please understand that I don't believe for a New York minute that the Qur'an is of Divine origin.


Second, there is absolutely nothing that is "mixed up" about the OT and the NT. It's God's written Revelation of the progression of salvation history of mankind.

You say, "Dont put your words in His words."


With Q 9:29, I didn't put my words in S 9:29. All I did was explain what I think the entire Sura means and then ask you whether the requirement that non-Muslims, even if they are Jews or Christians, first be "invited" to enter Islam and then be warred against until they convert or pay the special tax could possibly be of Divine origin. Are the 3 choices of Sura 9:29, war, violent intolerance against the people of the Book or death, the will of God or not?

I say not because dhimmitude is a direct challange to the idea that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights.

God is not a God of confusion and it can't be both ways for there is only one truth. The question is who and whose Holy Book is in possession of it?



on Aug 03, 2007
"Do you question all works of antiquity like you do the scriptures? Do you believe Homer wrote the Illiad? The history recorded in the Scriptures proves to be accurate. As far as we have been able to determine, the names, places and events mentioned in the Bible have been recorded accurately."

I do question any work which proclaims to be "the way" or exclaim supernatural acts and powers to be possible. The Illiad is a story, there is no religion based upon the story, certainly no cult of people who make it their business to go looking for people to follow join the clan and follow their ways. Like Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc...

Also, the place of "heaven" and "hell" are quoted and conceptualized in the bible yet nobody has ever been there and back. Perhaps the places and events mentioned have been recorded accurately, I'll agree with that, however in the literal or metaphorical sense?

Did Jesus walk on water? Did he make wine from water? Did he make a blind man see? Did Moses speak face to face with God? You take that what is written as fact, and maybe that is fact. But maybe it is not. Certainly not everybody claiming to hear from God today, is actually conversing with God would you not agree?

Does the distinguishment of who is and who is not conversing with God remain entirely on a personal level for each of us?

Let me ask you another one. The conversation has turned from God to angels, now who here has seen, smelled, tasted, heard, or experienced any form of angel observation that is provable as fact. I.e. some angel performed an action that cannot be explained away in any other way except angelic or divine action or occurance?

Anybody?
on Aug 03, 2007
Care to share?

You know what don't bother, I remember you, you're evil.
on Aug 03, 2007
you're evil


not evil...just baaaad  
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